to sponsor or not to sponsor...

[daemion]

after noticing phil's little aside in another post i took it upon myself to put this democratically  to u guys. do we want a local sponsor gaming store giving us a discount or should we just promote internet retailers? im all for a lgs giving us exclusive discount and us not talking bout cheap overseas mini suppliers as long as its a fair price point and discount. not a token gesture.--- therefore i wil be continuing to plug overseas retailers who give us a fair price. what say u all? lgs? or internet?

[wouster7]

@Deamo

Good of you to notice. I was going to actually start a poll too but couldn't decide if it should just be members or everyone. Would be really interested to get everyone's point of view. Just so you are aware that plugging the webstores also limits our chances of potentially get sponsorship from them as well.


Edit: Added a potential avenue that has just opened up or closed as the case maybe.

[Vaul]

I don't get it.  We've all been plugging internet retailers since the dawn of time on these forums, why is it any different now?

[Frosty]

I think a sponsorship deal with local retailers would be a marvelous thing to have as it would most likely be mutually beneficial for both retailers and hobbyists alike. Nevertheless I would personally not like to enter into any kind of sponsorship deal that had a censorship caveat requiring us not to discuss any other alternative sources of hobby products. In other words I hope the club forum will always be a place to freely and openly exchange ideas and discuss all things hobby related.

[Weasel-Fierce]

I think a sponsorship deal with local retailers would be a marvelous thing to have as it would most likely be mutually beneficial for both retailers and hobbyists alike. Nevertheless I would personally not like to enter into any kind of sponsorship deal that had a censorship caveat requiring us not to discuss any other alternative sources of hobby products. In other words I hope the club forum will always be a place to freely and openly exchange ideas and discuss all things hobby related.

Quoted For Truth.

Vagabond had an opportunity to offer us something to fill the void left by Maelstrom, but they mucked around too long and now Wayland is the flavour of the month.

I say, why do we need sponsorship at all? Why not charge another $5-$10 per person for tourney entry and use those funds to buy prizes from retailers who charge the fairest prices at the time (whomsoever they may be)? If as many people use Wayland's proposed ROW service as I think they will, surely they'll be saving a lot more than the bump in tournament costs.

Bottom line, if sponsorship comes with a muzzle, it's not in our best interests as an independent organisation.

[Hausdorff space]

I am all for local sponsorship IF it's with a decent sponsor - a responsible stockist the that carries a range usable by everyone, at a  reasonable price (before or after discounts), and is truly supportive of the game(s)/community.

That is not Vagabonds.


If we were going Auckland local the best place I can think of is GHQ, where if they sorted out some distribution channels (which they may have), then they could make themselves into a great club based retailer system (like Phoenix Forge in Queensland)... and our support could help them develop into a full on high quality battle bunker type store (like we have lacked since Battlehaven closed).

Otherwise I have no problem supporting internet retailers.
Though I would much prefer to work with the Australian ones as they are a part of the extended local scene, are keen to develop good relationships with the NZ market... and we would be seen as much more important to them then to stores we're half a world away from. (and a discount/whatever from them would put them equal in discount to the big UK stores... in everything but GW, I guess.)

[daemion]

yeh. what haydyn said.

[wouster7]

Great to hear everyone's ideas but need more people to discuss this for a consensus.

If we were going Auckland local the best place I can think of is GHQ, where if they sorted out some distribution channels (which they may have), then they could make themselves into a great club based retailer system (like Phoenix Forge in Queensland)...

I initially was really keen to make these guys a part of the community too. I organised a tournament for them to get them exposure and make everyone aware of where they are. I've since got a really bad taste in my mouth from the guys there.

I have had my templates, army books and other things go missing from this place and my memory stick disappear for it to reappear with everything deleted turned into a music player and a quick comment 'didn't think you needed it' thrown at me. I've been accused of being a thieve as they had magic cards go missing, well I'm not like the same immature 6 year olds they maybe use to hanging around with.

Simple conclusion, use it for the free space it is for Tuesdays but be aware that these people are unreliable (3 of their number turned up to the tournament only 1 completed the 6 games because they didn't think it was important), immature and untrustworthy. They are in no way a stockist of any GW or other suppliers range apart from magic cards. If you want them to buy you stuff they buy from webstores and then on sell to you with a mark up.

I will not be organising any tournaments or promoting anything there in future.

[Chris]

Since Battlehaven went under (we live in hope and pray for their return) I haven't seen a single place in Auckland that makes me want to give them my business or spend more than 5 minutes in their dingy place.

Vagabonds are a bunch of crooks and retards as much as I admire Dave's business acumen. To associate the club with them is a bad move in my eyes.

We all have our preference of webstore and until the rapturous ressurection of Battlehaven or the rise of another store as clean, well lit, friendly and professional as them I doubt we will be motivated to move our business to a local.

[Hausdorff space]

...

I'm glad you told me of that.

I was of course just speaking from having seen the store (as a venue) again recently, and knowing how well simple club supporting internet based stores can do (as evidenced by some of the Aussie stores).

Tis a shame on GHQs part really

[Monkey King]

Why should we bother with local stores. This change of GW's happened and they had a clear chance to step up their game, to entice us back, pat us on the back with sad commiserations of "there there, it'll be okay, yeah, I think they suck too, but look, I've got this Obliterator for a fraction of the price I had it before" Like some horrid junk lady from Labyrinth piling crap onto us..


She's taking offers for any clients. $5, love you long time sailor boy!

But they didn't. They sat back like some smug a-hole, nodded their collective heads and ignored the opportunity that was presented to them, expecting us to crawl back to them, pleading for them to have some pseudo relationship with us and agreeing with them that lube was not required and that bleeding was something we not only wanted but required.


One of the more humourus planets, a red Uranus

What we should look at is the kind of party that will come to us. That values us as customers. Sure they may not give us the greatest deals in the world, but some sort of deal would be good. We promote within our own little groups, I know, Dan (Placator) tells me about websites of models and so forth that is posted here by you guys and then I pass that on. A smart company or business would realise that, although we only really advertise by word of mouth like some shady character on a side path, we're still pushing their business. (Man, I haven't thought of my highschool days in years)

We promote the games we play, and therefore, not only would be customers in the sense that we would purchase products from them, we would also be their first salesmen, advising new players and current players who to shop from. (Not the guy on the side path!) And if that means an online company, then so be it, because as far as I can see, they seem to want our business a hell of lot more than the local retailers

So, my two cents, stuff the local retailers.

[Rhok]

Phil what did I tell you about GHQ months ago, they are a blight on the wargaming community and if they fell off the face of the earth, the world would be a better place for it, they had a great deal going with Vagabonds previous owner until they crapped all over him.
I'm in full support of the indie retailers / stockists like Vagabond (Don't forget Steve's models in Papakura) as they are integral to the health of the market, for not just GW product, but heroclix, FOW, DnD etc. As I'm sure we all want to able to go and browse and have a natter in a store, rather to shop online or troll through Trademe etc.
Comics books fans in NZ gone through more termoil than gamers with the rediculous price wars of the early 90s to the mid 2000s and with stores that open and close over night due in no small part to people not supporting them and the greed of the consumer.
So shop local and support you indie stockist, as they may not be there tomorrow. 

[Chris]

Problem is we want a quality LGS. Read that, Local Gaming Store, a place where you game.

What we have are not those. We have local retailers.

[Vaul]

Although the negative things said about GHQ (I assume we're talking about FTW games here?) are based on truths, I should like to add my own experience which was a successful one-day WHFB event (gift of morrslieb), the venue was perfect for that and Nick Young was extremely generous to come in early on his day off and open up, and generally help with the proceedings, Tommy also lent models and so on. 

[daemion]

neva had a problem with ghq=ftw. im there every tues nite and no1 f *?!'s with me. i vote no for vagabonds cbd.unless we get a sweet deal. i miss battlehaven 2.

[Rhok]

Don't get me wrong about GHQ, they have one heck of a good size location, far too many bad first hand feedback from wargamers, magic players etc would make me ever refer them to anyone . I doubt they are a legit business or even a registered business and I can't imagine them ever becoming one, so anything they promise I would take it with a grain salt.
Vagabonds is great, parking is just a sob thanks to Auckland City Council, so I only ever pop in on Sundays. Whats Vagabonds in Takapuna like for its late night gaming, obviously store size is an issue.
But I would vote for Vagabonds, as mainly there is not much else option wise. 

[Hausdorff space]

Vagabonds is great

(this is highly subjective, and game dependant but) I have to disargee.

I've been there and waited (paying parking) for someone to turn up and open the shop... and gave up 45minutes after their advertised opening hours.
They've directly refused to advertise (the Warmachine communities') games and events.
And for product without company set NZ RRP prices their charges are awful - they currently have stock they're trying to sell for double US RRP!

I have also heard tales of them arbitrarily refusing club discounts on products; and falsely advertising discount deals, etc.

[PACman]

Vagas have also dropped their VIP discount to 5%


Sponsorship is only really worthwhile if it can be MEANINGFUL sponsorship.
If discussion of online retailers is likely to jeopardise our chances of reaching a sponsorship deal, it will be because they cannot match the value of online retailers, even with whatever discount their sponsorship would provide.

I've become less and less impressed with Vagabonds as time's gone by, as I've seen their RPG and miniatures ranges shrink drastically to a GW and FoW focus with some token gesture at PP, and if you want to roleplay anywhere except the offline version of D&D Online (ie. 4th ed D&D), then you're outta luck.
Their underselling strategy to suck GW's customer base away from their brick&mortar stores began to disappear as soon as the Queen Street/Lorne Street store shut down, and with GW's price increase without the benefit of even 10% discounting (seriously, a SM commander comes in at over $40 for ONE plastic infantry figure WITH THE DISCOUNT) I currently have no reason whatever to buy from a physical store in New Zealand.

They don't have half of what I want, and what they do have costs twice as much as I'm prepared to pay for it

[daemion]

BUMP!!!!! because of course this is all my fault...

[daemion]

and im being polite. oh how i wish we still had access to cheap GW stuff from overseas. i miss you maelstrom. sob sob sob.

[Hausdorff space]

I could be wrong Daemion, but I'm pretty sure you started this thread in reaction to Phil mentioning in another thread that we had already lost sponsorship from Vagabonds due to people openly promoting other suppliers.

[daemion]

i cant find that thread. maybe it was deleatd?  i wantd to re post it too. and they hadnt pulld the plug wen i startd this. i jst want to no why im the scapegoat?read phils 1st post above... we were stil trying to decide wat to do.. then as regan said the gw embargo hit us and vags realisd they didnt hav to giv us a damn thing. 3 of the current exec postd here too... and im made out to be the bad g'uy. i dnt get it.

[Derick]

... and im made out to be the bad g'uy. i dnt get it.

But D-Man you love being the bad guy, its what your good at 
If you didn't rant occasionally this board would make a pretty boring read.

Re: Vagabonds
The initial comments were related to a sense of loyalty for our sponsors, we shouldn't be advertising their competitors - which is pretty much common sense.
We do live in a democracy where free trade is encouraged, but there is also the "You scratch my back, and I scratch yours" spirit which needs to be respected by everyone to work.

Re: GHQ (which is what this post was about before thread-jack)
The feeling is that they basically displayed a total lack of respect us after we ran a tournament to raise funds for them.

[daemion]

thanks derick. ^_^ i actually find it harder to rant now since the doc doubled my dose of anti grumpy pills. yeh. i do enjoy being the bad guy sometimes. no one else will do it eh?

[Hausdorff space]

i cant find that thread. maybe it was deleatd?  i wantd to re post it too. and they hadnt pulld the plug wen i startd this. i jst want to no why im the scapegoat?

Who knows, this forum is hard enough to follow when it's just one thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4v1nKydTCA&feature=player_detailpage#t=20s

[juiced]

. oh how i wish we still had access to cheap GW stuff from overseas. i miss you maelstrom. sob sob sob.

you still can......I'm buying full kits from bitz barn , they are (nudge nudge,wink wink) 2nd hand so they come without its box

and wayland games announced via an e-mail in December , that there "rest of the world' section will be up and running by Feb/march this year

[Lazarus]

I dont know why this is such a big issue, There is only one big local retailer other than GW and that is Vagabonds. What even with a discount is more expensive than what we can get out of NZ. I am still lucky i can buy from Melstrom still. We should kick vagabonds to the curb and promote the best and the cheapest we are all hobbyists that dont have much cash and want our toy for the best price possible. I know this as i make a killing on selling 2nd hand gear on trademe when i buy bulk from over seas and resell.

Going off this we are mainly talking about GW gear and others like Warmachine and FOW are cheaper than GW models. I know they can be cheaper over seas but you get a 50% saving on GW stuff overseas.

Hands down i think we should be just paying for our own stuff for tournaments like said above whats and extra $5 on entry. This topic has been going around in circles for months. Phil i will have a chat with you on what i think when i see you again.

[Gas_Monkey]

Our rugby team sponsor was a bar, we had it on our shirts. Yes we drunk there (lots) but we also drank at other bars. They got a good deal and so do we. Vagabonds are not Nike and saying we can't promote online stores Is strange because they ultimately lose that business. Except for going into business for ourselves a diverse range of sponsors would be great. How about Slave to painting? They are setting up and might want to come on board? There stuff is awesome at a good price..

[daemion]

I dont know why this is such a big issue, There is only one big local retailer other than GW and that is Vagabonds. What even with a discount is more expensive than what we can get out of NZ. I am still lucky i can buy from Melstrom still. We should kick vagabonds to the curb and promote the best and the cheapest we are all hobbyists that dont have much cash and want our toy for the best price possible. I know this as i make a killing on selling 2nd hand gear on trademe when i buy bulk from over seas and resell.

Going off this we are mainly talking about GW gear and others like Warmachine and FOW are cheaper than GW models. I know they can be cheaper over seas but you get a 50% saving on GW stuff overseas.

Hands down i think we should be just paying for our own stuff for tournaments like said above whats and extra $5 on entry. This topic has been going around in circles for months. Phil i will have a chat with you on what i think when i see you again.

and this is why im still struggling to understand how losing the vagabonds discount was my fault. thanks Laz. u da man.

[Sectiplave]

Yeah I read the e-mail also, was an interesting read, and certainly doesn't look like an easy time to be getting the club back on it's feet.

I would say myself, Luke, Dave, Laz and probably a whole bunch of others are also responsible for continuing to mention the elephant in the room when it came to a club sponsor that wanted 'full air time' so to speak. The elephant being the UK suppliers who gave an all year around 40% discount. I guess it's easiest to single you out because you are the loudest and most confrontationa l person of the lot

Slightly more on topic, I don't see any local suppliers offering good prices on the two relevant ranges, or offering decent venues. My 5 cents in regards to Games HQ, a personal friend had thousands of dollars of magic cards and is laptop go missing from his car while parked there..... I'll be the first to say opportunist thieves don't take playing cards. Take from that what you will.