GuardCon 2011 (lot's of pic's)

[Chaoswolf]

You better not break the circle of trust... I'll be waitin 

[hebejebus]

can we have a full explanation of how the PD and DD maxs and things work, pretty sure i understand but some comp seems pointless, for example infernal puppet is +2DD  and with no other items that do +DD for WOC it seems pointless to me because who uses over 10 DD as WOC, can anyone even generate that much as WOC?

note just trying to make sure im understanding it correctly rather than complaining, used WOC as an example cause i dont play them

oh and thanks for the pack! :-)

oh and the paint score says three colours if u want to participate in "Equinox" :-)

Edit: Multiple topics condensed into one

[wouster7]

Well thought I'd release the pack so I would get more comments but it seems to be very satisfactory as there's minimal noise Back home now so ready to answer the mountain of Q's.

can we have a full explanation of how the PD and DD maxs and things work, pretty sure i understand but some comp seems pointless, for example infernal puppet is +2DD  and with no other items that do +DD for WOC it seems pointless to me because who uses over 10 DD as WOC, can anyone even generate that much as WOC?

Nice and easy as I'd forgot that I was suppose to ban the Inf Puppet. Version 1.2 will be out later tonight.

The +PD and +DD on magic items and abilities reduce the maximum PD or DD in your magic phase regardless if the item/ability is removed due to casualty or other. So for eg: you have an item that is +2PD then the maximum amount of PD you can generate is 10PD per phase and all other dice are lost.

Hope that helps.

@Hebejebus

Thanks for noticing 'Recycling is the way of the future' 

[hebejebus]

sweet cheers phil

[lockyreid]

Few questions from me.

• Max 1 Lord choice of each a Warrior and/or a Magic type (Archlector ,
Vermin Lord counts as mage)
• Max 4 Hero choices

What is the reason behind these? Mainly the Hero choice one.
These arent part of the standard ETC restrictions, so you must have added these yourself and I was wondering why?
With the restriction on some of the obvious problems (goblins and engineers) and the restriction on total points spent on heroes, I don't understand the reason behind this.

Lord of change couts as +1PD

Is this additional to +2PD for Loremaster ability?

Dreadlord on cannot take crown of command.

typo or is it supposed to say pegasus/horse or similar?

Max 4 Warmachines and template weapons

Is this supposed to be and/or or is 4 warmachines and 4 template weapons ok?

Only 1 unit may cost up to 400-500pts (Characters not inclusive)
 Only 1 unit may have up to 40-50 models.

Why do these have top restrictions? Was that just a rough guide or is it a strict 40+ and 400+ cap?

Max 1 of same rare choice. Double RBT’s and Eagles are permitted,
plus 2 for 1 selections count as 1 rare choice.
This compensation does not allow for Double Hellcannons, Screaming
Catapults, Treemen, or other similar choices.

I see this is going to cause a problem. You have specifically capped skaven rares at 0-1 but all other rare choices are up for debate whether they are similar choices or not? Would a definitive answer be better?

Thanks Phil

[wouster7]

@Locky

The smart decision would be to wait for ver 1.2 as I've already said theres going to be changes to the typos etc.

• Max 1 Lord choice of each a Warrior and/or a Magic type (Archlector ,
Vermin Lord counts as mage)
• Max 4 Hero choices

This stays. Who said this was the ETC. It has been specifically stated that ETC restrictions was used as a guideline. Goblins and Engineers are the obvious problem and yes they are restricted and these restrictions also limit other problems that are not going to be part of this tournament obviously.

- Lord of Change is +1PD and because he is a loremaster its an addition +2PD. I make it +3PD over all if you take him.

-Dread Lord cannot take crown of command

-Well spotted yes Max 4 Warmachines/template weapons and just before you ask warmachines that use a template are only counted as 1.

Only 1 unit may cost up to 400-500pts (Characters not inclusive)
 Only 1 unit may have up to 40-50 models.

That's correct so your next other unit can only cost 399pts or 39 models.

- On the Rare choices, thats quite correct the TO reserves the right to veto your ass. This tournament is designed to be on a level as playing field possible (admitted pretty hard to do). Follow the correlation and I'm sure you can work out the other units that would be frowned upon if taken in double doses.

[Chaoswolf]

BAD PHIL! Big Bird (Lord of Change) is not a loremaster, he is just like any usual Herald, he must purchase the loremaster ability. Just ask me not to take it 

[Fujin]

• Max 1 Lord choice of each a Warrior and/or a Magic type (Archlector ,
Vermin Lord counts as mage)
• Max 4 Hero choices

It's a useful restriction that should prevent the TO having to bother rejecting some lists that shouldn't be submitted. Looks like a case of "just because this is cap, that doesn't mean you have to actually hit it". Still...

Arch Lector on Altar + BSB + 3 level 1 Light Wizards. Plus decorative gunline. Almost sure I've seen this somewhere online (TWF) but with a few more Light Wizards in there.

Might be the sort of build the TO would veto despite the fact that it stays within the letter of the law.

Max 1 of same rare choice. Double RBT’s and Eagles are permitted,
plus 2 for 1 selections count as 1 rare choice.
This compensation does not allow for Double Hellcannons, Screaming
Catapults, Treemen, or other similar choices.

I see this is going to cause a problem. You have specifically capped skaven rares at 0-1 but all other rare choices are up for debate whether they are similar choices or not? Would a definitive answer be better?

I'd be inclined to agree. Why leave it up to "negotiation" or a possible veto? Why not "double Rares if they are under a certain points value and (maybe) not warmachines"?

[Antony]

Awesome logo

[Chaoswolf]

Agreed, logo is supersweet.

[Monkey King]

Just ask me not to take it  

Fine, I'll do it. No Lord of Change, No Keeper of Secrets, No BloodThirster, No Daemon Princes and No Purple Sun. This rule is for you and you alone....

[Chaoswolf]

 

Well ok then, as Khorne is my witness, I shall promise not do 5/6 of those things.

[Monkey King]

haha, I'm just hassling stupid purple suns...

[Timothias]

Thanks for the PP Phil, looking forward to catching up with you Northern Bombayer's again.

Not a fan of comp personally, reckon a few armies will be hit hard, list variety reduced a bit but City Guard put on quality events so looking forward to it!

Arch Lector on Altar + BSB + 3 level 1 Light Wizards. Plus decorative gunline. Almost sure I've seen this somewhere online (TWF) but with a few more Light Wizards in there.

Might be the sort of build the TO would veto despite the fact that it stays within the letter of the law.

Not sure I agree with that particular example as being anything too nasty. That is the list taken by Mark Wildman at the UK Masters (which was no comp). It's not a very good list, he came 3rd to last. It looks good on paper, and might do well in the odd game, but what they found at the masters was that those people who stacked one aspect of their armies performed woefully. Marks list doesn't seem to be any worse than your comp'd up Dwarf anvil gunline.

In fact the Masters was won by Richard Laking's DE list which was by far the most balanced list taken;

--------------
Supreme Sorceress
Level 4, Lore of Shadow

Sorceress
Level 2, Lore of Fire

Death Hag
Battle Standard Bearer, Cauldron of Blood

Master
Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak

25 Spearmen
Full Command, Shields

25 Spearmen
Full Command, Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer

5 Dark riders
Repeater Crossbows, Musician

10 Shades

10 Shades

20 Black Guard
Full Command

War Hydra
--------------
IMO 'Power armies' win situations. Balanced armies win tournaments. I say let people take the extreme stuff and suffer at the hands of balance and strategy.

I also feel that restrictions such as character slots for example makes some armies weaker (low LD armies that depend on them to keep them competitive) and you can be sure that these are not the armies that win tournaments under comp restrictions. It just means less available tools to deal with nastiness that the comp does allow.

Ho hum, probably should be in a separate thread, but felt the need to make sure there were other viewpoints out there other than the "comp makes things more balanced" one.  

Is it October yet?

[Chaoswolf]

Well thanks Tim, now anyone with a DE model is currently off checking to see whether they have all of the above

Monkey King I purplesun am  purplesun sorry purplesun for what I purplesun did to you that fateful day

[hebejebus]

i would love to see less comp and more TO vetoing lists, that way the TO could sit there with a list of things that he would normally veto but does not have too.

of course this would make a TO's life hard, and i already have much respect for people who do it

[wouster7]

V1.2,

So ringing in some slight corrections such as typos and grammar fixes.

Also main things to have added:

DE: can only cast with 6 max PD, Dreadlord cannot take crown of command.

+PD, +D clarified.
Infernal Puppet banned
Warmachine/template corrected.

The pack is fair across the board and no list is hamstrung in any way. With a similar pack working in two previous tournaments I've been a part of I can attest that armies are diverse and competitive. I'm still a firm believer in Hard cap tournaments ands not comp based tournaments.

@Monkey King

Get a leave pass and come join the boys October.

@Fujin

Decorative gunlines seem more boring than win games. I'm just glad that most people have broken their 7th edition mind sets and are playing 8th now. The empire list you mentioned does look fantastic (like Seaguard )on paper but seems very patchy and with 8th a balanced list very much is the optimum build in my opinion. If you were to take prescribe example Empire list I'd give it the nod and wish you a very big luck.

BAD PHIL! Big Bird (Lord of Change) is not a loremaster, he is just like any usual Herald, he must purchase the loremaster ability. Just ask me not to take it  

Kipper is still good to go Dan Even with only 9dice you'll be ripping up a storm. I don't remember Kipper having amnesia and forgetting the other four spells o Tzeentch either.

@Tim

Totally agree that balanced armies that compete in all phases win tournies.

[Chaoswolf]

Kipper is still good to go Dan  Even with only 9dice you'll be ripping up a storm. I don't remember Kipper having amnesia and forgetting the other four spells o Tzeentch either.

Phil, you and I are going to have a long talk about Lord's of Change, and what they can and can't do There will be a model, laser pointers, graphs and spreadsheets. And I will bring my KoS too, just because it'll enjoy watching the Lord of Change being prodded 

[hebejebus]

ill have to disagree with you a bit phil, and alot of lists are hamstrung, for example empire are forced to take wizard/warrior priests to have proper dispel power where as before you could survive on just warrior priests/arch lector. ( would love to see a clause that says if no wizard taken they get 4 DD )

DOC are forced to take smaller unit sizes and forced to revolve around their greater daemons. what if a player wanted to take no greater daemon? how about a clause that says if no greater daemon taken unit size maxs at 40 or something atleast then all the special rules of the army can be used because horrors cant become lvl 4 without 35+ models

Dont really care much about the comp on dark elves, seems fair and i should be able to work with it even though your taking away a army special rule >_< but it does force you to build certain types of armys as dark elves

just concluding that your comp forces players to make certain types of armys to stay competitive, oh and it means you dont have to worry about as many things cause you know whats going to be there so your lists dont have to be as flexible

i think playing dark elves gives me a -10 opinion score though lol

[richardbarby]

like the pack there phil looks good.
king of the hill adds a much different dynamic on the watchtower mission than have a building in the middle of the table. Is there a bar at the venue

on chaos dwarfs and there errata you could still use it but clip out the option of armour on the blunderbusses. even i think it breaks them a little. You could always add to your pack chaos armour no shield. other wise the errata does help the transfer from 7th in to 8th with the indy list.

there is a unit deffinition part on the errata worth keeping maybe as reference

[PaW]

you don't need anti-magic / magic to survive.
Having more troops is a defence all of its on . Just so you know.
I don't see why empire and dwarf players think they need extra magical defence just because its there. Dwarf players are extremely paranoid

Btw Phil . I think a concede is supposed to be 20-0 not 15 -0

Good luck all

[Aa7]

Can't see why the DoC BSB is only able to take an Icon or Gifts and not and Icon plus his points allowance in Gifts as per the book? doesn't seem too broken if you combine the two - just makes the BSB a bigger and more expensive target taking both.

And having all gifts as 0-1 makes it near impossible to mkake a useable mono god list - my nurgle list doesn't use multiples of the same gifts but is boring as to play with and against so i won't be taking that.

those are my moans but otherwise it should be a fun event - looking forward to it

[Ugrat]

Some thoughts on the PP

The rare composition is still to confusing and messy
A simple "no double rares over 80(or xxx) points" would be far simpler. Coupled with the additional army resrictions/additions its faier and simpler

Also the restriction on Chariots is strange. As far as Im aware the only races that can take more than 4 are Beastmen, Orc's n Goblins, and Tomb Kings. Out of then, Beastmen are resticted to 3 under basic comp, as are tomb kings, and both the Tomb Kings and Orcs n Goblins are arguably the most ballanced books in the game

In summary, I think all the areas that you are concerned about would be covered by the following:

Max 3 of the same core choice
Max 2 of the same special choice
No double rares over (xxx) points (excluding HE/DE RBT, 2 for 1 slots ok)
Max 4 warmachines and template weapons total

The above in addition to the max points for units, max size, max archers etc would make it alot simpler, still limits Warshinx, Abomb, Hydra etc

[pukeko]

Thanks for the players pack phil

 Looks great    am looking forward to playing 6 great games

  If people are wanting min comp then they should the Rumble in September other wise they should be happy
  that you have put your hand up to be TO and play by your rules

 

[wouster7]

Hey guys,

Looks like you're all getting into the spirit of things and I'm happy that I've made sure that everyone is not in agreement with the pack. Just so you know that's why players packs are designed, so you don't like what it does to your army. The pack is fine as it is and if it doesn't appeal to your bigger picture of things it appeals to my bigger picture of the tournament, thanks for your input.

@Pete

the 15-0 concede is a concept I'm still trialling. I wasn't happy with how rage quitting and so many 20-0's was skewing the swiss chess draws in recent tournaments. I'll let you know if practice makes proof. Perhaps a masters round will be ultimate submarine protection, but I'm not using that this tournament.

@Richie

Prolly the only man driving an ChDoof army, I'm happy if you send me emails on your views. Currently I'm perfectly happy with just the Indy ChDoof Book with no erratas.

@Hebe

I didn't ask you to take a flapper this tournament, be happy with no -10  
Hamstrung to me means you don't get to hop as well. I'm perfectly happy with hopping it gives you a spread of target environments, this time around anyways.

** Virtual Line of sight rules are also in the v1.2- before anyone mentions it yes they are not just etc virtual line of sight rules.

[Timothias]

Thanks for the players pack phil

 Looks great    am looking forward to playing 6 great games

  If people are wanting min comp then they should the Rumble in September other wise they should be happy
  that you have put your hand up to be TO and play by your rules

Yeah, definitely. Have signed up for the Tauranga tourney in September. Also looking at running something similar next year in Hamilton, if anyone's keen. Would miss playing against you guys though! It's not a proper tournament unless I've been blown apart by Daryl's big guns

you don't need anti-magic / magic to survive.
Having more troops is a defence all of its on . Just so you know.
I don't see why empire and dwarf players think they need extra magical defence just because its there. Dwarf players are extremely paranoid

Btw Phil . I think a concede is supposed to be 20-0 not 15 -0

Good luck all

I think it's more to do with list variety than magic defence personally.

[Monkey King]

Monkey King I purplesun am  purplesun sorry purplesun for what I purplesun did to you that fateful day

Haha, no problems you happened to get an IF at the right time, in the right place on the right unit, nothing I could do about it, I had made contingencies in case of that spell and others, but not much I could do against IF...

@Monkey King
Get a leave pass and come join the boys October.

I really can't. I'm all over the place at the moment with this whole deciding to move back to Auckland, so although you'll see my ugly mug some more, (I know, you're all looking forward to that!) Tourney's are a bit out of my range right now. Sides, going to start work on my Tomb Kings soon and won't have them ready by October, though I have been offered a Wood Elf army to paint. Next year for sure.

[Big D]

..... It's not a proper tournament unless I've been blown apart by Daryl's big guns

Heh, it's more the large axes and mining picks burying themselves in soft squishy human skulls that do for your empire Tim. And Superior Tactics of course 

[Simon]

Can't see why the DoC BSB is only able to take an Icon or Gifts and not and Icon plus his points allowance in Gifts as per the book? doesn't seem too broken if you combine the two - just makes the BSB a bigger and more expensive target taking both.

stop people from taking a flying greater icon of despair or a unkillable one.

I'm still a firm believer in Hard cap tournaments ands not comp based tournaments.

good call Phil, comp is history, people need to move on.

[Chaoswolf]

[stop people from taking a flying greater icon of despair or a unkillable one.

Ban the offending item then, not crush a myriad of options that aren't offensive. And direct me to the unkillable dameon herald, mine have always had very mortal tendancies for immortals.

@ Phil - Fantastic work sir, going to be a great tournament and I'm very much looking forward to it.