Chaos dwarf army book coming soon in July

[Simon]

Some info on the upcoming Chaos Dwarf Army Book.

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Tamurkhan is due out in July 2011. The Chaos Dwarfs were primairliy designed to be used as a contingent to add to the Warrior's of Chaos army, however the book contains a FULL playable Chaos Dwarf Army List with many options and upgrades.

The new Chaos Dwarf infantry (Infernal Guard) are Chaos Dwarf Slaves that are forced to wear the full suit of armour and full face helmet before being unleashed on the Chaos Dwarfs enemies. The champion has no full face helmet which is a reward from his captors.

Most of the warmachines had two pages of rules/background/stats etc some of this stuff is going to be complicated to use. The Warsmiths also had a huge amount of original rules and exciting options.

Warmachines can be connected to form a seige train, however it costs a ton of points and won't be used unless you are playing 'ard boy lists (3000+pts).

***UPDATE***

Update from a couple of gents who got to look at the book and talk to the author.

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led 571 Wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs do have them as a list that you can use them on there own, bull centaurs are monstrous beasts and hob goblins are in!

blunderbuss have extra rules for the size of the unit. a unit 10+ gets no modifiers for long range or stand and shoot a unit 20+ also gets to reroll to hit or wound (sorry cant remember which).
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led 571 Wrote:
Only strength 3 with armour piecing and can't remember the range, they where saying it should be going to the printers in July.
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Valaraukar via Kroothawk Wrote:
That reminds me, Alan Bligh the author of the new Tamurkhan book mentioned that the Chaos Dwarves would have a special character Great Taurus in addition to the standard one and that these would now be constructs powered by bound fire demons. He also said there would a monstrous infantry incarnation of these so giant flame filled suits of animated armour!

[Simon]

finally, a real chaos dwarf army book is coming out, none of those cheesy bullsh_t craps that the current (unofficial) book have.

[warpmaster]

Its only got two core options in it still .

[richardbarby]

will the book be at gw ?

[warpmaster]

Nope,Its a warhammer forge book

[richardbarby]

do i have to get it via mail order or some bs like that

[Simon]

Insert Quote
do i have to get it via mail order or some bs like that

warhammer forge

[richardbarby]

im going to lose my biggest advantage

 the your going to have to take my word for it with the fan boy list advantage . time to take up 40k again

[richardbarby]

if bull centurs are monstrours beast does that mean there on a 40mm base

[richardbarby]

finally, a real chaos dwarf army book is coming out, none of those cheesy bullsh_t craps that the current (unofficial) book have.

still bitter about my goloums hammering half your army in the warm up for fluffy

however any idea on the price

[Simon]

if bull centurs are monstrours beast does that mean there on a 40mm base

you will find out when they release the models.

still bitter about my goloums hammering half your army in the warm up for fluffy  

the unofficial chaos dwarf army book is design for 7th edition and not 8th edition. There are too many abusable special rules and cheap units in the list which are too effective for their cost, combined with some under cost magic items I think they are one of the hardest army book at the moment.

IMO, the only reason why you don't see many chaos dwarf army taking the podiums is because there are not many chaos dwarf players out there.

however any idea on the price

well over $150 NZD.

[richardbarby]

150 time to start saving the pennys i guess

i agree on the podiums part as well there a good list better in 8th than 7th and at the comp level of most tournies there not the bunny list the rh list was

[Glenn Patel]

if bull centurs are monstrours beast does that mean there on a 40mm base

you will find out when they release the models.

still bitter about my goloums hammering half your army in the warm up for fluffy  

the unofficial chaos dwarf army book is design for 7th edition and not 8th edition. There are too many abusable special rules and cheap units in the list which are too effective for their cost, combined with some under cost magic items I think they are one of the hardest army book at the moment.

IMO, the only reason why you don't see many chaos dwarf army taking the podiums is because there are not many chaos dwarf players out there.

however any idea on the price

well over $150 NZD.

I think you seriously underestimate how much the "eccentricities" of the list hamstrings itself... there's a lot of on the face of it impressive stuff that all costs a million points.

That said, hurrah, I dislike the Indy list for sucking in 8th, so at least we agree on the need for a replacement.

[richardbarby]

it never sucked in 8th at all

[Chris]

The unofficial chaos dwarf army book is design for 7th edition and not 8th edition. There are too many abusable special rules and cheap units in the list which are too effective for their cost, combined with some under cost magic items I think they are one of the hardest army book at the moment.

That you think a Forgeworld book will be any better is pretty amusing on the face of it...

[Simon]

Yes, I saw sOme of the forge world rules for the new forge world nurgle units, they look quite "balance" too me. Probably because the rules are written by somEone who play Warhammer and not 40k

[Vaul]

The indy GT CD book is indeed one of the better books in 8th, it really delivers in the mechanical areas which mean the most:

* Killer warmachines, you can even go hellcannon+earthshaker without that counting as a 'double rare'
* Tough Str5 infantry that even has armour and great LD
* Access to dirt cheap, steadfast infantry hordes
* Great magic in the form of shadows
* Unbelievable anti-magic in the form of hexacon+scroll
* Cheap fast cav
* Excellent Monstrous infantry

Almost put the LAMEassu on the list because of the miscast buffer, but at the end of the day its not one of the solid choices.  Going through other armies, so many of them don't check half of the above boxes in 8th.

[Glenn Patel]

Point by point...

The Hellcannon is an impressive beast, will not argue (it's also stolen from the WoC list). Earthshaker is also nice, although the power of the earthshaking part is reduced.

The ability to take Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons is also pretty good.

The cheap infantry squabble. This is a significant problem.

The magic? There's no boosting dice count. Most lists which have magic as a strength can generate extra dice in some fashion; CDorfs can't even try to channel extra dice by taking hero level casters.

Anti-magic? Hardly the only army list with double-scroll, and Hexacon is a Scroll that can fail to roll well enough. I'll grant that it's good, but it's fairly comparable to dispel scroll + some other defensive arcane item (and worse than the Empire/Bretonnian/TK/other? ability to take two scroll effects)

The cheap fast cav squabble. This is a significant problem.

The monstrous infantry come out of Rare. Even at 2400, that means '5th and 6 Golem, Earthshaker, Hellcanon: Pick any two'. (and at 2k, Hellcannon/Golems isn't an option). Also, they're significantly more expensive than, say, Trolls. 6 Golems weighs in at the cost of 6 Trolls plus a cheap hero. (not a BAD unit, but an expensive one)

...and back to war machines and shooting in general... they're spoilt for choice against infantry, they really are. Death Rocket 5" templates, Blunderbusses knocking out 20% of a unit per volley, plus a couple of big stone throwers!


So if, when playing Warriors of Chaos, you think to yourself "You know what my army needs? More stuff to kill enemy infantry!", Indy Chaos Dwarfs might be the list for you.

IMO, though... Warriors of Chaos are probably going to do whatever you were planning to do better.

[Vaul]

That said, hurrah, I dislike the Indy list for sucking in 8th, so at least we agree on the need for a replacement.

IMO, though... Warriors of Chaos are probably going to do whatever you were planning to do better.

That's quite a softening of your position on the matter.  Nobody is disagreeing that WOC are right near the top at the moment, but go compare the indy GT CD list to regular dwarfs or wood elves, for example.

[Simon]

IMO, though... Warriors of Chaos are probably going to do whatever you were planning to do better.

IMO Dwarf of chaos is as good if not better than warriors.

[richardbarby]

IMO, though... Warriors of Chaos are probably going to do whatever you were planning to do better.

IMO Dwarf of chaos is as good if not better than warriors.

thats a big call but they have some great options in the list

several horde busters (blunderbusses death rockets )
cheep screening units ( wolf riders )
shock units (goloums and anything mindrazored)
good leadership 9 or 10 for a general always good
underetimated units (bull centurs will additional hand wepions and choas armour)
down right cheaky (sneaky gitz)
some good warmachines earthshakers hell cannon
armour of the furnace is brilliant on a centur vs flamers  or any doc mark of tzennch

on the down side
they can be expencive
they will generally be out diced in the magic phase only one mage
low initive values (pit and purple sun love it )
anmosity is a bitch sometimes
for all there warmachines they need a cannon s10 not stone thrower shooting

and for my final 2 cents there a list that has really inproved under 8th by with out meaning to
RH was bottom 3 or 4 out of 17 armies in 7th
indy was maybe 11th -13th in 7th
indy in 8th is definatly behind 4 armies (woc doc dark elves lizzard men .in no order)
they sit on a par with empire vampiers skaven high elves (but high elves are a bad match up)
i think there better than dwarfs orgers beasts  tk,s orcs and goblins dow woodys and brets 
so i would put them around 5th-9th ina  tie with the for armies mentioned above

[Glenn Patel]

That said, hurrah, I dislike the Indy list for sucking in 8th, so at least we agree on the need for a replacement.

IMO, though... Warriors of Chaos are probably going to do whatever you were planning to do better.

That's quite a softening of your position on the matter.  Nobody is disagreeing that WOC are right near the top at the moment, but go compare the indy GT CD list to regular dwarfs or wood elves, for example.

I picked WOC because it's basically across the board 'sucks to be you Indy boys, we're just better at doing the same things you're doing'. Which makes for easy comparison.

Vs. Regular Dwarfs?: Regular Dwarfs have the same infantry, better shooting (both in terms of units and war machines), better anti-magic, better ability to tool-up characters... pretty much nowhere do the Indy boys do better than break even, save for the fighting prowess of the war machines (as opposed to, say, accuracy or low points cost), and the things Dwarfs don't do.

Over normal Dwarfs, Indy boys gain:
-a magic phase (but not an exceptional one; they have 0 good offensive items)
-Access to fast cavalry, cheap infantry, monstrous infantry

So it's hard to compare. Hobgoblins are neat, but Animosity, which leaves pretty much just the Golems as something Dwarves don't do that also doesn't suffer from Animosity.

Compared to O&G (old book), Indy is basically watered down O&G (Trolls lose to Golems heads up, but are still comparable), bar Blunderbusses. Who I have never seen be devastating. (to go to Dwarfs for a moment, I would take Thunderers instead in a heartbeat).



Vs. Wood Elves? It's chalk and cheese. The armies function completely differently. I can't meaningfully draw a comparison, and we don't have enough game data to say 'this one is better'.


But compared to the armies that work similarly to Indy CDorfs - Indy CDorfs are weaker than their mainstream counterparts (including O&G, now that Ld10 is easily achieved by them).


Also, I personally don't think WoC are particularly good. They're solid... which leaves Indy CD's as being worse than solid. Otherwise known as 'sucking'.

[Vaul]

I just feel like you've taken this bitter view due to not having had the kind of success with CD personally that you might have liked?

Also there haven't been any top players taking up the CD mantle (no offence to yourself and rich), so we can't point to them and say hey they achieved a podium with this army, the book must be alright.

A shame really!  I know you're trying to be objective about this, but in reality the indy GT book is right up there, and I don't think you've refuted that.

[Glenn Patel]

I just feel like you've taken this bitter view due to not having had the kind of success with CD personally that you might have liked?

Also there haven't been any top players taking up the CD mantle (no offence to yourself and rich), so we can't point to them and say hey they achieved a podium with this army, the book must be alright.

A shame really!  I know you're trying to be objective about this, but in reality the indy GT book is right up there, and I don't think you've refuted that.

You've never played them. I don't think you've ever tried to build a list with them. You've certainly never waded through a tournament wielding them.

I'll point out Rob has shelved HIS Chaos Dwarfs because the Indy List (in his opinion) makes them too bad to worth running (compared to the RH list), so this isn't just me (indeed, it took a while for me to see that POV).


As for my playing... my ranking has been sucked right down since I started playing Chaos Dwarfs. This is not a coincidence. They've been my 'I love these little guys!' army. When I actually wanted to win games I'd break out DE or Lizardmen or VC (the other three armies I'm working on...).

I played Chaos Dwarves because I wanted to play Chaos Dwarves.


The rules are available online for free, Vaul. Come up with a list you think would rock our worlds. Find a champion to play it. I've still got a significant portion of my army (wasn't all in the case that went missing)... I'm fairly sure that between me and Richard we could cobble together whatever it is.

Then you or your chosen champion can play it at an event and prove me wrong. Or just a series of club games against volunteers, that's probably going to be easier on people. Or heck, one public battle report.

[richardbarby]

i have gone the other way ranking wise mine has got better playing choas dwarfs but i have only plaied 4  tourniments so far 2 with dark elves and 2 with choas dwarfs

 i was pony and trap with the dark elves with a 4 -8 record with choas dwarfs i have a 6-1-5 record not setting the world on fire but much better

you added what you thinks a realy good list i think this is one of the better ones that  i have been toying with

mage lord shadow scroll helm
slave bsb hexigon halefire gun

2x20 blunderbusses full command shileds choas armour .im trying to get them to fill the roll of cmobat and shooting 3+ save along wit there shooting
2x5 wolf riders bow muso
40 spear hobgoblins full command

2x5 bull centurs choas armour additional handwepions muso m8 15 attacks strength 4 3+ save
2 bolt throwers
10 gitz champ and muso

1 earthshaker
6 golums full command breath attack

[richardbarby]

i would also say there mis matches that the choas dwarfs find hard but some they find easy
hard woc lizards dwarfs
easier vampiers

elves are something of a funny one sometime your trying to hit a wasp with a slegehammer sometimes you get hold of them and give them a good slapping

[Simon]

2x20 blunderbusses full command shileds choas armour .im trying to get them to fill the roll of cmobat and shooting 3+ save along wit there shooting
2x5 wolf riders bow muso
40 spear hobgoblins full command

not too sure if you are reading the same Indy Chaos dwarf book as mine or an army book that you wrote? But my one says blunderbussesr s cannot have shields and cannot have chaos armors.

my one also says you need to have 25% core with chaos dwarf warriors and blunderbussers only.

[richardbarby]

there is an errata that give those options
 11 points base 1 for a shiled 2 for choas armour 14 each is very expencive and the 2 units totla just over 600 points when you add in there command

glenn gave me a link to it. it had been written by the 2 guys who made the list in the first place

it covers all the changes made in to it the most inportant are
no magic on dsmiths there cost comes down
earthshaker slow down covers the total movment charges and random movment included
golum full command modle does not have the last stand rule
armour of the furnace in line with dragon armour 2+ ward vs flameing attacks
lots on the tower and how it works
deamond shrickers get an extra wound

[Vaul]

I feel like there are two things that need to be kept separate;

- On the one hand, this thread seems to have gotten people's emotions in a bit of a stir, i'd really prefer that we settle down a bit in that regard.  Its easier to have a useful discussion that way.  It's not the most important thing to prove oneself right or wrong about.

- On the other hand, I actually quite like chaos dwarfs, and have often thought about giving them a go.  I couldn't really bring myself to take them to a tournament because for me, that's also a chance to showcase the visual and hobby aspect of an army, so those opportunites need to go to projects i've worked on.  Unless I was to use an army like mark's (I think that's his name anyway), the guy who has all the lava bases and blackorc bull centaurs etc.  But i'll come up with a list that suits my style and have some games when I can, there are a lot of games I want to play with a lot of other armies but I play enough warhammer to get some time in with them.  Will report.

[richardbarby]

its just a discussion i dont think anyone has really got carried away. on a personal level im really happy that someone other than me and glenn are talking about choas dwarfs  .

luke im keen to see you want to give them a run what even list/rule book you end up uesing be nice that someone else is giving them a go.

im sure glenn and  i can offer you some advice or opinions