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Author Topic: HELP!!! In desperate need of 40k tatics for orks and spacemarines!  (Read 956 times)
Robbie
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« on: February 04, 2011, 12:38:30 PM »

Hi I've lost my third game in a row,by a wide margin and I've only played three games at the city guard. :'(SM are the priorty as in both battles they were completly wiped out. Embarrassed All three games were annihilate and they went Orks vs Orks
SM vs SM and SM vs Space Wolves. Below are my army lists.

Space Marines1683
I think the main problems with my SM is to many elites and not enougth anti-tank. What do you guys think? Huh
Marneaus Calgar 250
4 Honour guard relic blades chapter banner235
Captain artificer armour power weapon hellfire rounds 140
10 tac squad missile launcher flamer170
8 tac squad8
5termy squad200
dreadnought 105
3 damned leigon heavy flamer
land speeder50
1biker25
landraider crusader250
Orks1315
As for my orks I dont no whats going on only im losing! Huh
ghuazghukul thraka 250
warboss power klaw eavy armour twn shoota100
5 nobz bosspole eavy armour stikk bombs150
5 burna boyz75
20boyz sluggs chppas 2 big shootas
10 ardboyz rokkit launcher nob power klaw135
trukk 65
3 deffkoptas rokkit launchers135
Battle wagon killa kannon big shoota red pant job ard case175
deff dread extra dreadnought close comabt weapon kustom mega blasta 105
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 06:38:20 AM by Robbie » Logged
Hunter_Flood
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 12:52:07 PM »

"HERPA DERPA DERPA! I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL OR WRITE AN ARMY LIST!"
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HarasinCreed
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 01:04:06 PM »

Ok im not a pro but some of the things i have noticed are:
Dont take marneaus Calgar he sucks for the amount of points he costs.
Dont take honour guard no matter how cool they look or how cool the rules look. They like Marneaus are not worth it unless playing Apoc or something.
Final thing is you need to focus your army more it seems to have random stuff like 1 biker 1 speeder with no upgrades and 3 LoTD guys.

So just so stuff to think about when getting more miniatures.
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 03:32:18 PM »

Space Marines1683
I think the main problems with my SM is to many elites and not enougth anti-tank. What do you guys think? Huh
Marneaus Calgar 250
4 Honour guard relic blades chapter banner235
Captain artificer armour power weapon hellfire rounds 140
10 tac sqd mssl lnchr flmr170
8 tac sqd8
5termntr squad200
dreadnought 105
3 dmnd lgnrs heavy flmr
land speeder50
1bikr25
lndrdr crusdr250

swap out horneus fistor and honorguard for bikers. frees up enuff pts for another hq. like a craplain or librarian. stick captain on a bike. take more bikes as his guard. ditch landie for devastator squad(S)

mobile forces are good. razorbax 1st choice. 2 full strength tac squads with a razorback each. combat squad them. 1 squad of scouts...

just my musings....
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 11:54:33 PM »

Wrong calgar is very good if you can deliver him.

Dump the captain what a waste off points. due to having calgar whats the need for him.
Dump the Damned once again WTF.
Dumb the bike. (why one WTF
Dumb the termys. May looks good but 3 WTF

Put calgar in Land raider with guard.
Max out two tac units in rhinos.
Make land speeders tornados and add another one and put flamer and metal on them.
Add in a 2nd dread with lascannon and rocket load out. 
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 03:18:56 AM »

as an ork player I'm still learning as i go as well

BUT never take an ork mob of less than twenty. so if you want to use trucks to get the boys up close quick take them in pairs or in your case get another two trucks so you have 3 groups of ten but make em work together.

try and take maximum size of your elites, 5 flamers (or even the 5 nobs) will disappear before you have a chance to fry anything, and stick them in a looted wagon to get them where they need to be quicker.

the only mob that has any chance of serving in smaller numbers is your mega nobs they are expensive to buy (both money and points) but stick 3 or more with Gaza. stick em in a truck (or the wagon) and you have a mini mob of carnage.
it will be targeted buy every man and his dog (or wolf  Roll Eyes ) but it has a higher rate of surviving to take out a few groups, while you get your foot sloggers up into the fray

if you play a shooty style game your outa luck but here's what I've picked up
orks are the worst shooters in 40k so again take bigger mobs so to increase your chance of hitting something 30 boyz means 60 shots......mea ning at least 20 will hit something Wink
or get your self some greatchin big guns (you need some heavy units) or killer kans they have a slightly better BS of 3 the great thing about the big gunz is you can add more grotz to take the hits they can end up being like wounds for your guns (still its 50% chance between gun and crew)

I've been using grotz as living shields lately with some success (they keep running away Grin ) but orks are a mob army the more there are the better they are

"ERE WE GO'' "ERE WE GO" "ERE WE GO"
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Robbie
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 05:34:37 AM »

Wrong calgar is very good if you can deliver him.

Dump the captain what a waste off points. due to having calgar whats the need for him.
Dump the Damned once again WTF.
Dumb the bike. (why one WTF
Dumb the termys. May looks good but 3 WTF

Put calgar in Land raider with guard.
Max out two tac units in rhinos.
Make land speeders tornados and add another one and put flamer and metal on them.
Add in a 2nd dread with lascannon and rocket load out. 

By dumb you mean dump right?
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Robbie
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 05:38:07 AM »

Thanks guys i,ll try to follow your advise. Cheers  Cool Cheesy


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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 05:38:14 AM »

There's a lot of suggestions so far that say 'oh wow that all sucks, take something completely different'. That's a bit unfortunate, as you probably want to start with some smaller changes and learn over time, rather than go and buy and paint a whole bunch of new models up front. (For those that don't know Robbie is a fairly young guy and probably doesn't have a huge budget for new models)

From what I know about Space Marines, they are generally 'good' at most things, but don't excel at much.

What that means is that they are fairly good in combat, but to make them really good in combat will cost a lot of points and there will still be plenty of enemy units out there that can beat them up no worries.

They're also pretty good at shooting and have a lot of good weapons, but some weapons are more expensive than they need to be. For example, Landspeeders and Predators are some of the better ways to get big guns into the army, whereas devestators are fairly expensive (points wise) for what they do. Some armies like Tau and Imperial Guard can also get a lot more big guns for less points.

Based on this, I think a good marine list will be balanced - that is, have some good shooty units and some good combat units that work together.

The army you have taken has quite a lot of points tied up in combat units (Marneus and his Honour Guard, the Captain) and not a lot of dedicated shooting units (as basic tactical marines aren't usually a particularly effective shooting unit)

Some simple suggestions that I could make:
* If you really like Marneus, keep him (plus he's painted really nicely!). However, you need to be more aggressive with him. Don't be tempted to stand still in front of the enemy army just to use his orbital bombardment - he should be moving fast towards the enemy to engage them in combat! To help with this, I would suggest deploying him in the Land Raider with his Honour Guard.
* The Honour Guard should probably be made a little bit cheaper if you can (not sure what upgrades they have etc), as they will still be able to beat up most enemy units without all their upgrades
* Because you have Marneus in the list, he fulfills the same role as the captain, which makes the captain a little bit unnecessary. He could be removed.
* 1 Biker is not really enough (and also strictly not a legal option, as a unit of bikes starts at 3 models ). If you have more bike models then include them, otherwise leave this out.
* I would probably also make a choice between the terminators and the dammed legionaries, as they may both fulfill the same role.

With the points that you have saved from those changes, I would suggest:
* Some weapon upgrades on your tactical marines and terminators. A power fist in the tactical  squad will really help when they get into combat
* Some more shooty units. This could be things like a Dreadnought with Lascannon and missile launcher, some Landspeeders with weapon upgrades, some predators or whatever.
* Upgrading your landspeeder with some better weapons. A single basic landspeeder with heavy bolter usually won't achieve much by itself. If it has a multimeta though, it can potentially blow up expensive enemy tanks (for example). Upgrading it with a typhoon missile launcher can help it destroy enemy transports like Rhinos and also make it kill more enemy infantry. You can often buy just the extra upgrade bits for a typhoon missile launcher from trademe for just a few dollars and glue them on to your existing model. Same with a multimelta.

Tactics wise, I probably should have done a better job in our game of pointing out things that you could have been doing. Next time Smiley
I'm a bit of a novice myself, but here goes:
* The basic tactic is 'shoot your enemy's combat units, and combat his shooty units'. Generally that means you want to have some fast moving units advance towards one part of the enemy army, while your shooting units try to destroy the enemy transports and weaken the units that you are going to assault.
* Don't be indecisive. Decide if you are going to advance, or stay still and shoot. If your tactical squad is deployed at the back of the board shooting things, don't start moving it forward unless you really have nothing to shoot at.
* Take advantage of cover. Whenever possible, deploy your shooting units somewhere where they can get a cover save, and advance your combat troops in a way that hides them from most of the enemy guns
* Deploy your mobile units behind cover, and move them out in your first turn (for example dreadnoughts, landspeeders or predators). There's nothing worse than your enemy having the first turn and using his big weapons to shoot all your tanks out in the open before you've even had a turn.
* Get your fighting / close combat units into combat as soon as possible. The longer you spend moving around the board before you start an assault, the longer the enemy has to shoot you. This is why transports are so important.
* Even though the Landraider has some guns, its main purpose is to get the guys inside into combat quickly without the enemy shooting them. Don't be tempted to move slowly and use its guns until after the unit inside has jumped out and assaulted.
* Even though you have troops that can deepstrike, its not always the best decision. Sometime they're better off being deployed on the board at the start.

Hopefully that helps Smiley

As for Orks, I have no idea Smiley

p.s We'd really appreciate it if you took the time to write out your units names fully and clearly. We try and avoid 'txt speak' on the forums.
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 06:03:05 AM »

I agree the models they it would be easy-er to start from the beginning.

Key things in 40k is most games are objective based the less troops chooses you have the harder it will be to win. with 1850 points you need at least one killer unit that will cost the point but will normally win them back.

Calgar and his guard need to be protected in some form of transport weather it be a land raider or rhino. Land raiders i say are to much for 1850 in point cost for a normal marine list. They are nice and big but one shot and they will still pop. I know this i have lost my two land raiders in my deathwing on the first turn.

Numbers are better. you need a mix of speed and defense, Take it from me who has been playing marine for 15 years and have 5 armys of them, they suck in assault. They work best and a counter unit. The speed units are key for picking out targets, speeders and attack bikes are very good anti tank they can also be tooled to be anti troop at the same time.

Scouts are also a nice cheap unit to hold stuff.

But everyone plays there own way you make you army how you want, if it works for you good on you.

Take in everyone's advise but what works for them might not work for you. play some games with stand in models before you buy them if you are on a low budget lots of the guys at club have units you can use as most of us have a few armys around. watch people play with marines are read the codex front to back over and over and think of strategy's.

Elite army's can work with practice, i am out numbered every game with my deathwing but they have won vs large army's. 
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HarasinCreed
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 07:30:53 AM »

One thing to keep in mind is if you want to buy new stuff DONT go to games workshop, ask in the forum if people have stuff they want to sell or if you are wanting it new buy from Vagabond or on trade me. You save about $10-15 each time you buy a unit.
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 07:43:00 AM »

even better get the fokes credit card and buy from melstrom Games and u can save up to 20-30%
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 10:12:11 AM »

i get the impression you're a beginner to the game Robbie, and you've got a collection of models from around the place without a definitive game plan or theme in mind.  that's cool, and you've got a bunch of toys to play with, but against an opponent who's had more experience with the game and has a focussed army, i reckon you're going to find it an uphill battle for a while.

i'd suggest seeing if you could hook up games with others who are also getting to grips with the system as well and in that way you can both learn what does or doesn't work on a more level playing field.  that, or starting at a lower points level with any player so that you can learn what your units can do in more detail.  it takes a while to get to grips with all the units and their special rules, let alone figuring out what tricks you can pull with the base game system. 

end of the day, while the tactical advice you receive is relevant and important to consider, you'll need to have the experience to be able to use any army, regardless of its makeup.  that usually comes primarily from playing as many games as you can.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 11:17:47 AM »

I agree with Neckface. Do you live fairly close to a Gamesworkshop? If you do that is a good place to get some practice in Thursdays are a good day and if you are really new Sundays.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2011, 08:09:48 PM »

I havent read other comments so may repeat, new list:

1 termy character 175
5 termntr squad 200
1 dreadnought 105
10 tac sqd mssl lnchr flmr170
1 razor hb 40
10 tac sqd heavy plas flmr170
1 razor hb 40
5 scouts pfist 100
1 land spedr storm heavy flamer 50
1 land speeder mm 60
1 predator twin las, hbs 130
1 lndrdr crusdr 250

Quite a few changes but this army will stop you loosing so bad. This is a good model, just tweak it until it works for you and has a good balance.

1490 pts
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Robbie
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2011, 07:16:13 AM »

Right I,ve written up a plan of the changes i,m going to make to myarmies. Its going to take a while as like nik said i,m on a low budget at $15.50 a week plus i,m selling some stuff on trademe. Also I do prefer gamesworkshop when it comes to buying as allothougth it costs more you get all the extra bits and bobs. Also one thing I,d like to mention since I have little money I usaully only get one box at a time.I it find helps with painting as your under less pressure to get them finished. That means I can really spend lots of time painting all the little details and touch up any mistakes.I bet everyone in this club could just as well as [or better!] then me. Hope that inspires you.

Space Marines
-terminators
- captain
-damned lejionares
- bike
+ 9 scouts
+ two more landspeeders one multimelta one set of typhoon missle launchers and a heavy flamer
+preadotor with twin lascannon and sponson mounted lascannons
+10 tac marines
1849points
Orks
- both warbosses
+5 tankbustas
+5 more burna boyz
+trukk
+10 boyz with big shoota
+ 24 gretchin with two runtherders
+ Warphead Weirdboy
+10 stormboyz with boss zagstrukk
1849points
 Cool  
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 12:34:21 PM by Robbie » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2011, 07:19:14 AM »

better to buy from vagabonds rather than games workshop, but that's IF you have to buy retail.  if you have access to a credit card then buy over the internet from maelstrom, way way cheaper

apart from that, good luck kiddo - make sure to post those pics as your army grows and gets painted Smiley
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 07:23:21 AM by NeckFace » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2011, 07:53:39 AM »

melstrom supply the same gear as what you buy off the shelf no missing bits the same box. just alot cheaper.
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2011, 02:02:01 PM »

a lot lot lot cheaper....
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Robbie
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 12:45:21 PM »

 I,ve decided i,ll go check out vagabond because I know were one is.[I,m going to get the ten storm boyz mentioned before] As for mael storm I havent herd of that place. Also not ive changed my army plan so you might need to reread. Cool
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 01:37:35 PM »

maelstrom is an online store, so you'll need to spell it right when you run your google search for it Cool
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2011, 01:57:23 PM »

*enter spiderman*

Maelstrom link;
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/

Currency conversion link;
http://www.xe.com/

"Everybody gets one"

The downside to Maelstrom is you need to use a credit card to order, so you will have to hit up your parents about it Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 04:17:39 PM »

It worth the savings just remember not to buy more than $300 per order or customs will get ya.

U want savings i bought three eldar battle forces for $250 NZ from there GW retail almost $600 NZ. See the difference

Also you get money back for everything u buy so once you have a few pounds saved you can get models for almost free.
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Robbie
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2011, 02:37:37 PM »

If you have to use a credit card for maelstorm then it would be a big no no my parents just arent going to let me use a credit card. Really you would save very little on a credit card because you have to pay back around three times worth anyway!
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2011, 03:19:25 PM »

Not if u get a VISA debit card. like i have, it comes out of you own money. Smart people have these dumb people have credit cards now a days.

Also with credit card if u pay what u spend off in before the month is out you get no interest on it also. And they are not that bad compared to Hire purchase or store cards Alot less interest per year

Also i am sure one of the guys at club would order for him if he gave them the cash. I dont mind doing this sort of thing i always need to order something.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 03:22:19 PM by Lazarus » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 02:40:59 AM »

pay triple?  where'd that sum get magic'ced up?

just buy off vagabonds if your parents won't let you then.  better yet, buy off their trademe listings - they lower the price even more for those and you can go to their store (or rather, livewire games next door) to pick it up and pay for it in cash to avoid any shipping fees.

best way to get full boxed sets from a retail outlet
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 03:45:23 PM »

Credit cards are amazing! I pay mine off before any interest is applied, I also get points for using my credit card which I use to nullify the 6 monthly credit card fee, and also get myself $50 vouchers for westfield or the cinema's etc. So my credit card actually earns me $200 a year at this rate Cheesy

Back on topic, I agree with Neckface, check out vagabond games, best prices you will get for wandering into a store. Sounds like the best option in your situation.
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2011, 08:36:35 PM »

esp if you save up and do a large purchase once (Vagabonds that is) and get there discount card, then you get an extra off the price Grin
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 12:48:12 PM »

sorry about the 3x figure I got that all wrong
Anyway my dad agreed to check out maelstorm but when we added shipping and converted it to NZ it was actually $3 more![For a pack of stormboyz anyway]
So vagabond it is.
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 12:57:42 PM »

i thought shipping was free for stuff bought over 10 pounds?  or was it 20?

don't they have a 10 or 15% off deal at the moment too?
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