8th ed points

[Antony]

In 7th ed at 2250 points I could barely manage to stuff all the stuff I wanted to into my army. With 8th ed and 2400 pts I have no problems whatsoever stuffing all of the stuff I want into my army. This was the case with woodies, and now with all of the other armies I have looked at for Archenemy and potentially anything else.

For conventionally (as in what we thought of in 7th) and inherently (as in without external influence) balanced armies 2400 is too many points. I think we should dial things back a bit, and instead on increasing points for 8th to 2400 or therabouts, I think we should look at between 2000 and 1600 points. At that level we will have to make some hard choices about what we put in our armies. At points levels significantly higher than that we will inevitably be relying upon either peer or community based systems or rules to keep things sane and enjoyable.

Theoryhammer it yourself.

[omegakai]

wait.... wat.


So pretty much naked combat lords.
level 3s with 0 items and upgardes... hmmm
goobye woc.

[Vaul]

It's not goodbye woc.  I think other points values are definately worth a go but i'm not sure if we're ready to lower it too much for the main tournaments.  Lower points values tend to really favour some armies over others, although it is hard to tell at the moment.

[Fujin]

In 7th ed at 2250 points I could barely manage to stuff all the stuff I wanted to into my army. With 8th ed and 2400 pts I have no problems whatsoever stuffing all of the stuff I want into my army.

I think we should dial things back a bit, and instead on increasing points for 8th to 2400 or therabouts, I think we should look at between 2000 and 1600 points. At that level we will have to make some hard choices about what we put in our armies.

I agree in that we have enough tournaments on the calendar to allow for some differentiatio n in points levels. And if we never try 2000pts we won't know what we're missing. I'm happy with some events being 2400pt (or more!), some being 2000pts, some being possibly even less and having more rounds to play. This sort of thinking is what is pushing me closer to setting FluffyCon at 2000pts.

It's not naked characters - it's taking those things and actually paying a price for the investment by losing out in other areas. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this instance.


Cheers for posting your thoughts up Ant. Especially as they are where I am at right now too

[Carl]

As someone who is interested in starting up a Fantasy army, I'd wholeheartedly endorse 2000 points - cheaper and quicker to buy, assemble and paint an army.

[Ry.S]

I would like to see fluffy at 2000pts. I think it would go a long way to sorting some of the balance problems as you just cant fit in all the toys.

[SKELATOR]

nooooooooooooo oooooooooooo please not 2000 or less, again why cant it stay at 2250 or 2200.or 2400.
set your caps ban any dicks that don't want to play.the fluffy way.
just remember why this tounie was born.(nick B where are you ).
to me it is so you can field all those troop type's you would not normally use.and still have some toys,
again ban all magic that will balance it out.

[Fujin]

Ah Skellie - you're so funny. Ban all magic - coming from the guy who never takes any? Nice

just remember why this tounie was born.(nick B where are you ).
to me it is so you can field all those troop type's you would not normally use.and still have some toys

I'd be very careful about summoning the might Venerable Nick while using the word "toys".


I can only assume you'll be putting up your hand to run FluffyCon in 2010.

[SKELATOR]

i did help nick in 2010,
do you mean 2012  .
nick no s what i mean about toys.
2012 fluffy con then i can ban all magic  . will think on it.

[daemion]

banning magic wud be gd... im working on an all khorne daemon army.

[Fujin]

Yeah I meant 2012. You can run it then if you like.

[Antony]

Guys, I have no axe to grind about Fluffcon. Dave, Nick and the comp politburo have that in hand. My observation is with regards to general gaming, and uncomped tourneys.

I for one would like to play a few games at 1600 points.

[daemion]

just an ob too(no i aint picking for a change....) with the changes in ed's lower point games shud be awesome. 1600pts wud make for a great ladder comp or ongoing campaign.

as in 40gay, the lower the points, the harder the choices u make, the more sacrifices needed to make your army work.

u can have a slice of cake and eat half of it....

that sounds fun to me.

[Dirty_Vod]

I think that 2000pts is probably the right level to make players have to make hard choices in list design. 
Kind of the equivalent of 1500pts in latewar Flames of war, whereas 1750pts gives you more wiggle room to fill gaps.

As a bonus, GW allegedly designed the game for 2000pt armies 

As far as 1600pt games go, I think that you'd find games devolving even more towards rock-paper-scissors hammer.  The magic phase doesn't get any less dangerous at that point level but there are less units on the table thereby increasing the potential for a single game changing spell to have an even bigger effect.

[daemion]

oooooo. never thought of that. dirty magic users.

[Josh]

I seriously doubt I'd be bothered with tournaments if they all dropped to 1600 points. Go big or go home, imo.

[Ry.S]

2400 is 150 more than 2250. I still struggle to get all the toys into my lists.

[Antony]

2400 is 150 more than 2250. I still struggle to get all the toys into my lists.

But that is because you want it all. At lower points no one can have it all, so not every army has a lvl 4, and template doom, and every other conceivable method of destruction.

The magic phase doesn't get any less dangerous at that point level but there are less units on the table thereby increasing the potential for a single game changing spell to have an even bigger effect.

And with only 400 points to spend on lords, you have to make a choice: a relatively reliable magic phase with a lvl 4, or a conventionally average one with a fighty/leadership lord backed up by a lvl 2 casting spells. Noting that with the little casters you are less likely to get the big spells.

[Derick]

I do like more points on the table rather than less.
Yes its true, when it comes to dead piles, my one is bigger than your one, most of the time.
Its not so much the points, but the chance to throw lots of toy soldiers on the table.
I'd like to field an old blood on a carnie alongside a slann, just because I've got the models.

As far as actual playing goes. I really don't give a toss if its 1500 pts or 3000 pts, as long as I get to throw dice.
1500 pts, shorter games, could get in 2 games in 4 hours, an afternoon's gaming.
3000 pts, longer games, and I don't usually have a spare 6 hours to play 2 games.

Instead of making so much noise about it, why not just have a small in house comp 1600pt comp, running over a period of 6 weeks (every 2nd week, 2 rounds per day, 6 rounds). Then people could make educated noises about it.

I take it Josh is out, because he just can't man up to a game of toy soldiers under 2000pts.
Ant's in cause he started this mess.

 

[Dirty_Vod]

And with only 400 points to spend on lords, you have to make a choice: a relatively reliable magic phase with a lvl 4, or a conventionally average one with a fighty/leadership lord backed up by a lvl 2 casting spells. Noting that with the little casters you are less likely to get the big spells.

Rubbish - L2 with Loremaster ability will have a great time at 1600pts

[Derick]

Sounds like Vod is keen on the 1600 pts game

[Dirty_Vod]

I don't have the book with me but I bet a Slaan with loremaster is less than 400pts...

[Derick]

Slann with Loremaster 275
Slann with Focused Rumination(extra dice) and plaque of Tepok (1 extra spell) is only 290

[Glenn Patel]

...and Slann with BSB, Cupped Hands, Loremaster and Extra Dice is still only 395.

nuSlann can be pared down pretty cheap!

[Josh]

Which begs the questions... why has no one run twin linked Slaans? They're not 0-1 are they?

Slaan + rumination + Tepok + Lore of Fire
Slaan + rumination + BSB + Lore of Heavens
<600 points.

The reckon I could nerf the rest of the list enough to get that into a tournament. 
I'm so trying that out one day!

[Derick]

Which begs the questions... why has no one run twin linked Slaans? They're not 0-1 are they?

Slaan + rumination + Tepok + Lore of Fire
Slaan + rumination + BSB + Lore of Heavens
<600 points.

The reckon I could nerf the rest of the list enough to get that into a tournament.  
I'm so trying that out one day!

No question, ever heard of Veto?
No room for nerfing with 2 Slann.
besides that, those frog models are so ugly you wouldn't want more than one... I don't have any

[Josh]

In my personal opinion there's nothing in the game that is worth an instant veto... the army should always be assessed as a whole. For example:


Slann, rumination, BSB, Lore of Fire
Slann, Rumination, Tepok, Lore of Heavens
30 Skinks
30 Skinks
6 Jungle Swarms
6 Jungle Swarms
6 Jungle Swarms
20 Cold One Cavalry

2400 points.
It's just the mentality of the game these days; everyone assumes the worst...  :'(
Anyway... thread hijack over. Back to the topic at hand. Here's a perfect example of why games shouldn't be played at 1600 points, you nerf the 2 Slann builds! 

[Glenn Patel]

Heh.

I've actually pondered twin-Slann from time to time, but it requires at least 2200 points (two naked frogs *shudder*), and I don't think it does much that solo-Slann can't do by his lonesome.

I mean, if you want more spells, Loremaster gets you three more spells for 50pts, and only one of them can be the general.

[Derick]

Sorry Josh, I still don't buy it.
I heard that 2 hellcannons were an instant veto, why not 2 slann?
20 cold ones? that's almost as bad as a block of 30 warriors.
who has that many cold ones? or are we talking massive unit fillers here

[Argron]

There are instant vetos, 3 hydras? at 2400

And iv got 20 cold ones Derick 14 painted.

However I think one tooled up slann is far better than 2 little ones. Id almost think 2 slans is a weak option as there magic phase is going to be really no more powerful than a single, plus theres lots of points to collect up for your opponent.

But on topic id put my vote into 2000pts. My main reason is that it makes it harder to create these death star units which are so effective in 8th and that it forces choices in your list. Half the fun of the game for me is pointing lists and its not nearly as fun if I can get everything i want in, I enjoy squeezing what i can into lower points.