FoB List discussion thread

[Josh]

Certainly demonstrates a move towards restrictions quicker than was the prevailing wisdom prior to the weekend.

My personal opinion is that this is very early in the piece to be introducing changes to the rule mechanics of the game.

I agree, it's way too early to start throwing that sort of stuff around, and I personally hope it never comes to these changes. Why not just play 7th edition? The game has changed people... move on!

[Simon]

with the new shooting rule and improvement with the warmachines. I think it makes sense to make hills infinitely tall. Seriously, if nothing on the table block LOS, I think it is a "concession" taking a dragon or giant in 8th.

if hills don't block LOS, then you will see lots of dragon on foot with little wings.

I also agree with point 3, ignore all spells with a casting value of 15+ may bring some balance in the magic phase but at the same time may "upset" some ppl.

[Fujin]

1. Hills are infinitely tall.

2. 5 War Machine cap

3. All spells with a casting value of 15+ are ignored. If you roll a spell that has casting value of 15+ you may substitute it with another spell from the lore. You can roll the boosted version of a spell that has a minimum casting value less than 15.

4. No choice may be duplicated more than 3 times, including Lords, Heroes, Core.

5. Fleeing units at the end of the game count as destroyed.

Wow.

1. So now indirect warmachines can hide from reprisal and bang away without fear of imminent death? Nice. And those dirty Wyvern Lords can keep hiding behind hills and pulling a tactical "waagh!" to get on top of the hill in time to issue surprise charges. Fun. I prefer Big D's option - declaring in the pack what counts as level 1/2/3 for units of particular sizes and indicating on the terrain what each hill can then block. Probably still complicated though.

2. Fair enough. I guess. Haven't played any 5 warmachine armies so can't comment. Not enough experience. Having used a 3 warmachine army in a practice game I reckoned they were the business (clocked a Furnace and a Doomwheel and about a billion rats - god bless the Mortar when it doesn't misfire).

3. I would most definitely absolutely have done something like this for FluffyCon, but come on... that's FluffyCon. Massive change. I'd be pinging/vetoing lists with Loremaster and dodgy spell decks before wholesale stoppage of big spells. But then.... I've also not sucked down enough insta-losses to share the frustrations associated with a L1 or L2 Mage throwing 6 dice at an IF game-winning spell in turn one.

4. Fair enough. Maybe. What sort of characters/units were they seeing that were taken more than 3 times anyway?

5. Disagree with that one. Maybe this has more to do with victory point margins being achieved to allow the game to function better in a tournament environment? Kind of struggling with this.



This is a pretty ballsy call from the TOs for a generic tournament.

[that guy the Master]

I think the LOS rules in 8th do a lot to stop the Monster Hammer we were getting with 7th. Having all hills block line of site will reverse one of the aspects that most people have applauded 8th for.

[pete dunn]

Having played Pilgrimage where all this came from, my own view is that we are very early in the process to start introducing such far ranging restrictions.

Taking TLOS as an example, a lot of people were very anti when 8th arrived. I put down some thoughts on this at the time:

http://thefieldsofblood.blogspot.com/2010/07/tlos-case-for-defence.html

I think that there are ripple effects from all rule "changes".

[Fujin]

I think the LOS rules in 8th do a lot to stop the Monster Hammer we were getting with 7th. Having all hills block line of site will reverse one of the aspects that most people have applauded 8th for.

Come on Ant. Of course it's not Monster Hammer now. The rulebook has a rocket-powered hammer on the front cover! Now it's Warmachine Hammer


Oh, off-topic... but your sig?

What is best in life:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear them whine about your comp Kitson at Equinox and then make him use sucktastic Wood Elves for FoB.

Fixed. When are we posting up our lists for public ridicule and some friendly on the side betting/gambling action? You first.

[that guy the Master]

I'm using Wood Elves. What about you big shot?

As for list posting, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. You know for sure that I'll be bringing some sick-tastic combination of filth coz Nick doesn't have the heart to veto his own army*.






*Of course CTA does not bode well for the sickness of tasticness of his army either does it 

[Josh]

When is the army list template going to appear? 6-0 with my list is enough practice to say that's what I'll be taking. 

[Bignic]

Just a thought

Isnt the purpose of the unit-obliterating spells to discourage unbeatable deathstars packed full of doomy characters?

Ditching those spells will change the dynamic of the game in ways yet foreseen...

Ditching TLOS will surely make monsterhammer easier to pull off.

Arent we better off with fewer deathstars and less monsterhammer?
All that crap broke 7th edition for me.

Your philosophy may vary  :-)

N

[Big D]

I think we need to be very careful that we don't blindly follow the Australians in jusr scrapping chunks of the rulebook we don't like or that do not fit with what seems to be a continuing 7th ed mentality. Many of these seem to be kneejerk over reactions to things that hobble thier 7th ed lists. "Oh no, I can't hide my Dragon behind a 2 inch hill" or "Waaah, my Shade-Death-Star-of-Uber-Doominess got Purple Sunned and I lost 1200 points worth of characters in one turn".

Seriously, even throwing 6 dice, double 6 does not come up that often, they may make the casting value, but you have a chance to stop it. The guy talking about his friend destroying an entire Dwarf army with a Kadon-generated Chimera as a reason why big spells are bad made me laugh out loud. Must have been the dumbest dwarf general in the history of the great Strongholds.

While we may need a few terran guidelines to tidy up our current terrain sets (which were not designed for TLOS) we should be very hesitant in imposing possible game-breaking rules alteratons without ALOT of games under our collective belts.

And don't even get me started on Marcelos "I don't like that rule, so I will just ignore it" I don't like the fact that my grudgethrower scatters when fired indirectly, so I will ignore that rule.

[Glenn Patel]

with the new shooting rule and improvement with the warmachines. I think it makes sense to make hills infinitely tall. Seriously, if nothing on the table block LOS, I think it is a "concession" taking a dragon or giant in 8th.

if hills don't block LOS, then you will see lots of dragon on foot with little wings.

I also agree with point 3, ignore all spells with a casting value of 15+ may bring some balance in the magic phase but at the same time may "upset" some ppl.

If we have finally gotten to the point where taking big monsters isn't the hallmark of a broken list, the boys at Games Workshop deserve a ticker tape parade, not to have their work undone.

The AUNZ refusal to play 8th as written for even a few months before altering it to go back to the "good old days" of 7th ed is asinine.

[nik_]

The AUNZ refusal to play 8th as written for even a few months before altering it to go back to the "good old days" of 7th ed is asinine.

Unrestricted 8th is possibly even less fun to play than unrestricted 7th. You'll be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.

[Bignic]

Crikey

That is a metric frakton of unfun then  :-)

N

[pete dunn]

Unrestricted 8th is possibly even less fun to play than unrestricted 7th. You'll be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.

Interested in this comment Nick. You played at CTA on the weekend. There was no comp there, just a judges veto.

I checked the Lizard, Bret, Daemon, Skaven and Chaos Dwarf lists and vetoed none of them. I certainly none of them were anywhere near pushing boundaries.

How did you find your games - I know you played Tom's Daemons but not sure on other games? Did you run into armies you felt were overpowered etc or had people shown the right level of restraint.

Mal's lizards, who won, had no Slaan if I remember correctly.

[Simon]

I really enjoy playing with this list, it is very fun to use. Probably still need to make some minor changes but it is almost there.


Black Orc War boss
Martog's Best Basha
Amulet of Protectyness
crown of command
glittering scales

Night Goblin Great Shaman
level 4

Night Goblin warboss
chariot
Tricksy Trinket
One Hit Wonda

Black orc Big boss
BSB
talisman of preservation
Ironcurse icon

Night Goblin Shaman
dispel scroll
madcap mushroom

Night Goblin Shaman
staff of sneaky steal

25 orc boyz /w shields
full command

25 orc boyz /w shields
full command

30 night goblins
full command
3 Fanatics

29 night goblins
full command
3 Fanatics

5 spider riders
musician

Boar Chariot
wolf chariot
wolf chariot

spear chukka
bully

spear chukka
bully

rock lobber
bully

doom diver
6 trolls

[Josh]

I got cheated! Have a re-read of the troll vomit attacks again Simon. I like the list though, A+ on the BO Warboss's kit esp. I like that it is strong in multiple phases which is always important in a competitive list. I don't think you need the 2nd lvl2 Shaman though. I'd rather use his points for another fast cav unit or more goblins, etc.

[Simon]

I got cheated! Have a re-read of the troll vomit attacks again Simon. I like the list though, A+ on the BO Warboss's kit esp. I like that it is strong in multiple phases which is always important in a competitive list. I don't think you need the 2nd lvl2 Shaman though. I'd rather use his points for another fast cav unit or more goblins, etc.

yeah, pretty crap, didn't know trolls cannot vomit with the seond rank....  

there is a number of reason why I need the level 2 shaman:
1. if my great shaman fails animosity test, my level 2 can still cast spell, so no PD are wasted.
2. a level 2 + level 4 allow me to know the whole little waaagh lore.
3. keep my level 4 cheap, so I don't care if he dies.

right now I'm trying a level 4 and 2 level 1 which allow me to take an extra arcane item.

cheap fast cavalries are still very useful in 8th edition but I think 2 units will be ideal

[The Ox]

Hi all just looking for some feedback on my Empire list.

Motivation for the army is to paint the Steam Tank.

One question is are you allowed multiple Dispell Scrolls anymore??

General of the Empire
Armor of Silver Steel
Holy Relic
GW
Pistol

Wizard
Level 2
Dispell Scroll

Wizard
Level 2
Dispell Scroll

Captain, BSB
BSB
Banner of Sigsimund
Full Plate

Warrior Priest
Armour of Meteoric Iron
Ruby Ring of Fire
Shield

30 Flagellants

30 Swordsmen
Full Command
War banner
15 Swordsmen Detachment
5 Archers Detachment

30 Swordsmen
Full Command
15 Freecompany detachment
10 Crossbowmen detachment

1 Steam Tank
1 Mortar
1 Mortar
1 Great Cannon

10 Handgunners

Cheers
Rob

[Neil Williamson]

Night Goblin warboss
chariot
Tricksy Trinket
One Hit Wonda

Night Goblins don't know how to drive chariots - the caves and the darkness of it all don't give them much chance to practice.

[Neil Williamson]

Hi Rob,

Each magic item is unique to the army - page 500 (didn't you get that far), so only 1 scroll.

[Fujin]

Hi all just looking for some feedback on my Empire list.

Wizard
Level 2
Dispell Scroll

Wizard
Level 2
Dispell Scroll

Aside from the aforementioned issue with multple Dispel Scrolls, you also need to specify which Lore of Magic your Wizards are choosing.

[wouster7]

Plus which round your steam tank will suffer its mechanical problem and be removed from the game. At FoB its generous and you get to pick your 1st turn or your opponents

[The Ox]

lol, no haven't read cover to cover yet, only played one 4 turn game so far.

Yeah thinking about lores, undecided to date.

yeap don't know how to use Stank but no doubt will have blowing up down pat by the end of FOB, lol

[lockyreid]

Heres what I had in mind for FoB.
Its quite Character heavy but minimal on special and rare.
Feedback?

Grey Seer
Feedback Scroll, Lore of Ruin and Plague

Warlord
War-Litter, Bloodshed Sword, Shield, Potion of Strength

Plague Priest
Level 2, Flail, Plgue Furnace, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon, Lore of Plague

Chieftan
Halberd, Battle Standard, Storm Banner

Warlock Enigneer
Brass Orb

Warlock Enginner
Doomrocket

Warlock Engineer
Obsidian Amulet

30 Clanrats
Shields, Spears, Full Command

30 Clanrats
Shields, Full Command

30 Clanrats
Shields, Full Command

30 Slaves
Musician

30 Slaves
Musician

30 Slaves
Musician

20 Plague Monks
Full Command, Banner of the Under-Empire

6 Gutter Runners
Slings, Poisoned Attacks

Warp Lightning Cannon

Hellpit Abomination
Warpstone Spikes

Lords - 498 - 20.75%
Heroes - 596 - 24.83%
Core - 666 - 27.75%
Special - 298 - 12.42%
Rare - 340 - 14.17%

Total 2398

[Vaul]

I think that your seer's scroll will give you all the feedback you need.

[nik_]

I think that your seer's scroll will give you all the feedback you need.

 

Heres what I had in mind for FoB.
Its quite Character heavy but minimal on special and rare.
Feedback?

Seems reasonable enough to me. I'm glad there's only 1 cannon

[Vaul]

Seems reasonable enough to me

- Level 4 + level 2
- Sword of Bloodshed + potion of strength
- storm banner
- brass orb
- doom rocket
- furnace
- WLC
- HPA
- 6x units that are steadfast with LD10
- Great antimagic

What, no doomwheel?  I can't imagine any of the six armies I own coming close to having a chance of beating this list to be honest.  I guess i'm just behind on the times when it comes to 8th or something?  What are the weaknesses of this setup, just for my assistance.

[nik_]

- Level 4 + level 2

Fairly standard I would imagine. The ability of the seer to always take the 13ths spell is a bit nasty.

- Sword of Bloodshed + potion of strength

A nice gimmick. It does mean that he has no appreciable save though.

- storm banner
- brass orb
- doom rocket

All good items, it's true. Doom rocket especially scares me.

- furnace
- WLC
- HPA

All good units

- 6x units that are steadfast with LD10

I don't think you can hold that against a Skaven army - how else are they going to fill their core requirement?

- Great antimagic

mmm I hadn't considered this aspect, but you're right, it is fairly decent.

What, no doomwheel?   I can't imagine any of the six armies I own coming close to having a chance of beating this list to be honest.  I guess i'm just behind on the times when it comes to 8th or something?  What are the weaknesses of this setup, just for my assistance.

You're right, this is a tough list. Perhaps I was posting too late at night

[pete dunn]

I wouldn't call any of the lists on this page - Orcs & Goblins, Empire, Skaven - soft. But then neither was the High Elf list earlier in the thread or the WoC or VCs either.

There is very limited upside to posting a list in this forum because someone will always find fault with it. The TO has published a set a guidelines which I hope people embrace. Where there is a case for exceptions I'm willing to trust the TO's judgement. If there is a list that is abusive despite the guidelines then again the TO has the veto.

What is frustrating is the level of comp "campaigning" that goes on - both for and against armies/races etc. All of us seem to feel everybody else's list is soooo unfair.

Just my 2c. YMMV

Pete

[Simon]

IMO

since there is no comp and there is a set of guildlines, as long as the lists are within the restrictions provided from the player pack, they should be acceptable.

that's the whole idea of having guildines and no comp, right?

I don't think "many" ppl will consider taking a soft army in a no comp tournament, just take a look at the lists at dragoncon TS3.