FoB List discussion thread

[nik_]

What say you T.O?

As I said at the start of the thread, I won't be giving any firm yes/no answers to players before the event.

However, the information about the guidelines was relatively clear I think in that if you want to break some of the guidelines, you should expect to make significant concessions in other areas. I'm not sure that max magic and max shooting with solid other choices really counts as 'concessions'

OTOH S3 shooting isn't usually that terrifying. I'm struggling to outgrow 7th Ed mindset. Do you want to play me on Sunday? I need a practice game for CTA and that way I get to see how scary it actually is!

[wouster7]

But there is no point in having guidlines if they are ignored.

Point taken, but I still think you're more 'churned butter' than gouda early in da 8th edition  

I wouldn't risk submitting that. Without RBTs, maybe. Maybe drop the archers and an RBT for a big unit of PG or something. At least then it appears like you're going to commit to the enemy at some stage.

It could seem that the list is about shooting and avoidance. PG are a kak sandwich in 8th though.
 

looks good, Phil.

even with book of Hoeth, I don't it is that hard.

I'll have to play you with a similar list and the book sometime

What say you T.O?

As I said at the start of the thread, I won't be giving any firm yes/no answers to players before the event.

However, the information about the guidelines was relatively clear I think in that if you want to break some of the guidelines, you should expect to make significant concessions in other areas. I'm not sure that max magic and max shooting with solid other choices really counts as 'concessions'

OTOH S3 shooting isn't usually that terrifying. I'm struggling to outgrow 7th Ed mindset. Do you want to play me on Sunday? I need a practice game for CTA and that way I get to see how scary it actually is!

Already have a game Sunday. Keen for a game mid week next week, I'm guessing CTA is next weekend. I have to add that most peoples perceptions on which armies can pump out magic heavy casting and effective shooting is different to mine.

Multiple Warmachines >> 45x handguns, crossbows Str4 -2AS > 45 machine gun skinks with poison, 45 machine guns crossbows Str3 -1 AS >> 45 str3 bows

This is versus supposed horde infantry 8th will attract.

Another question:

Do LoC twin heads +2 stack with Lvl 4 +4, and I should know this HE +1 dispell or any other source stack with Lvl 4 +4 to dispell?


Thanks all for your thoughts and the list is just a feeler to see if it would get a hard ask from the panel. It can be tuned into a racing beast now and fall below the guidelines.

[pete dunn]

However the fact should be that a series of guidelines have been published and people should be endeavouring to stay within in them or as close to them as possible.

Phil - your point is a little disingenuous. Some armies such as WoC have no shooting other than thrown axes and hellcannons.

To say 2 HC is worst that 66 St 3 shots and 2 RBT plus no doubt Reaver bow etc is pushing it.

The thing with guidelines is that you can always make a special case why your army is different. Once the TO has published them it's my opinion that they are a default line in the sand. If we were talking 47 shots, maybe some leeway but we are not.

With Shadow magic reducing enemy toughness via Miasma, 66 St 3 shots is f#$k'n brutal

[nik_]

Multiple Warmachines >> 45x handguns, crossbows Str4 -2AS > 45 machine gun skinks with poison, 45 machine guns crossbows Str3 -1 AS >> 45 str3 bows

Agreed to some extent

With Shadow magic reducing enemy toughness via Miasma, 66 St 3 shots is f#$k'n brutal

Also agreed to some extent

Which makes it hard for judges to know which is good leeway with the guidelines. Therefore, err on the side of caution for this event

[Simon]

Do LoC twin heads +2 stack with Lvl 4 +4, and I should know this HE +1 dispell or any other source stack with Lvl 4 +4 to dispell?

yes. Loc with twin heads get +6 to cast, HE level 4 gets +5 to dispel.

[Bignic]

Let me get in early to thank Capt Soft Scores for what will be a huge amount of largely-unappreciated work.

Bad luck/bad timing being the dude in the crosshairs this year...

I for one will be turning up to roll some dice and see how it all works with no expectations that you will have somehow miraculously managed to create a level playing field where none has existed before.
Nobel Peace prize if you do :-)

N

[Josh]

Nice post Nick. 

[Josh]

I'm sure that all you sods will be taking the softest and fluffiest armies imaginable to Fields of Blood, so not wanting to cause a stir (or God forbid set an example) anyone have a problem with this list? It's not much of an 8th ed list, but it sure as hell is fun to play and that's the main (only?) thing. I've had enough theoryhammer so will be submitting this unless there's a community wide wailing about its broken-ness. 

Demon Prince of Khorne, 2+ ward vs magic
Tzeentch BSB 2+ AS, 5+ Ward, MR2, etc
Exalted of Khorne on Jugger, 4+ ward vs non-magical attacks
Lvl 2 (general), Dispel Scroll, immune to poison/death/nurgle magic, passes all non-Ld characteristic tests item (made of win).
10 Marauders with flails
10 Marauders with flails
17 Warriors of Tzeentch, FC, Shields, Rapturous Standard
17 Warriors of Khorne, FC, halberds, flaming banner
6 knights of Khorne
3 Dragon Ogres, great weapons
Hellcannon (of Thunderstomp goodness)

Small, but perfectly formed!

[Vaul]

Josh that list is not a problem - someone who plays better than you will win, there are no gimmicky cheesy combos in it as far as i'm concerned.  Your weak magic phase is a concession and the strength of the army (close combat) can be mitigated by your opponent's good decisions and tricks.

[Josh]

Thanks dude. The only thing I'm mildly concerned about is the Tzeentch warriors that tend to have the lvl 2 and BSB in them. It's like a 750 odd point unit that's very hard to kill (3+ AS/5+ ward in combat, 5+ ward vs war machines, 4+ ward vs magic, etc) The cost of the unit it more down to pricey individual models than anything else though. Not like there's a whole heap of bodies there.

[Simon]

looks soft as, Josh.

why not join both units of marauders into 1 big unit and arm them with GWs or Hw and shields??

IMO, small units just don't work in 8th edition, they are easy victory points for your opponent.

[that guy the Master]

I'm with Simon here. Most 7th edition armies would smash this, let alone armies made for 8th.

[Josh]

And yet, you see my win-loss ratio. Fools, all of you!
I'm not really concerned about getting smashed, just wanted to make sure that nobody had a problem with the list. I'm know that it's not hugely powerful, but it's got the ability to do ok, esp once in combat (turn 2). As I said, it's more about having fun and painting some sweet looking models. Cheers for the thoughts you lot.

Josh that list is not a problem - someone who plays rolls better than you will win...

Fixed that for you too.

[Fujin]

Took a Skaven army to task last night with Empire (had to burn points on characters because I didn't have the models for enough troops!). Thoughts on this?


General of the Empire - Armour of Destiny (5+/4++), Sword of +2 attacks
Captain - BSB, 1+ rerollable save
Captain - ASF Sword, 1+ save against shooting
L4 Life Mage - 4+ ward
L2 Death with Powerscroll

45 Spearmen - full command, MR2 banner, 20 Swordsmen detachment, 10 Xbow detachment
10 Handguns - 5 Archer detachment
10 Handguns
10 Xbows

2 Cannons
Mortar
17 Greatswords - full command

20 Flagellents


2250pts


Life Mage ended up with Dwellers, Throne, Awakening, Flesh to Stone. Good fun serving up toughness 7 Spearmen   Predictably the Death Mage rolled up Purple Sun and yes I managed an IF casting of the Big Daddy Sun. Gruesome stuff - took my opponent an entire magic phase to dispel it in the next turn. Dwellers ate stuff up, Awakening picked off stragglers and cleaned up units (very handy).

Mortar was awesome. Cannons nailed a Doomwheel top of the first and panicked a unit of Giant Rats off the board. Took shots at Furnace and got it eventually (Plaguemonks survived the game easily). Most of the other shooting went into a unit of Clanrats, bringing them down to a number that required the Rat general and BSB to hide in a Slave unit. Ended up with the Spears in a bad position, flanked by massive Slave unit, held but failed to reform and was broken after some shoddy rolling and a cheeky (and clever and well-timed) strength potion did for the BSB. A loss for the Empire but oh my WHAT A LOSS! Felt like Dwarfs with magic (scary scary magic).

[Josh]

I like it! I'd definitely try get a steam tank in there though if you're running Life on the level 4. Heal baby!

[nik_]

See Double Hell Cannon discussion

[Fodderboy]

Does this seem reasonable to everyone?

Vampire Lord   
-Forbidden Lore - Vampires   
-Summon Ghouls   
-Dark Acolyte   
-Talisman of Lycni   
-Staff of Damnation   
-Crown of the Damned   
-Extra Level   
      
Vampire   
-Infinite Hatred   
-Dread Knight   
-Talisman of Endurance   
-Dragon Helm   
-Biting Blade   
-Hellsteed   
      
Vampire   
-Forbidden Lore - Shadow   
-Wristbands of Black Gold   
-Power Stone   
      
Wight King   
-BSB   
-Screaming Banner   
      
Crypt Ghouls x 20
-Ghast   
      
Crypt Ghouls x 35
-Ghast   
      
Skeletons x 15
-Full Command   
-Spears   
      
Corpse Cart   
-Balefire   
      
-Grave Guard x 24
-Full Command   
-Banner of the Barrows   
      
Fell Bats x 5
      
Black Coach   
      
Dire Wolves    x 7
-Doom Wolf   
      
      
Lords......... ...420   
Heroes........ ..540   
Core.......... ...611   
Core+...........164   
Special....... ...463   
Rare.......... ...200   
Total......... .2398   

[Vaul]

I like it! I'd definitely try get a steam tank in there though if you're running Life on the level 4. Heal baby!

Josh - you can use a warrior priest to heal it I think.  Good thing about the priests now is that you can throw 6 dice without fear of blowing up, and their prayers get really hard to stop.  A priest would also give dave's spearmen hatred.... can't for the life of me think why he wouldn't take one!

[Fujin]

Because:

1) I threw this together for a game.
2) I'm not interested in absolute list optimisation. Obviously a Warrior Priest would be advantageous - makes the Flagellents Core, the Prayers, more toys. Could even keep him safe in the second rank if I played my cards right.
3) I don't have a Warrior Priest on foot and I'm not particularly interested in purchasing/painting one up.


What was most gratifying was that, "optimised" or not, we got a reasonable game, the army felt like it could compete, and it was involved/had options in every phase so there was lots to do. Assuming I take out the ridiculous Power Scroll on the L2 maybe take Fire instead of the hideously obnoxious Death (yawn) it looks to me like a reasonable list (probably too much shooting too actually... probably drop out some Handgunners for... something else).

[richardbarby]

hey bill i like how you can add so much more to your army when your drop the dragon black knights and blood knight 

[wouster7]

@ Fuj

It's good that most armies are good fun these days if you just take a standard list like yours. Makes for good solid games all round. People who like to 'dikcheese' them up is playing at another level.

Like all the lists submitted so far.

@Bill

What if I feedback scroll your vamp lord and then Lore of death him would his leadership be 1 or zip or somethingelse. Otherwise I'm sure 2 Hellcannons would mean how does the VC crumble in turn two I'm gonna adjust my army right now... or maybe not. I'll just proxy my Elves as WoC... that RBT is a Hellcannon...

[Fodderboy]

Based on feedback so far, Phil is cheesy, and Barbie thinks I should put the dragon back in then. I'll just say Uncle Gribbly's an RGB-shifted Fire Dragon with cohesion issues.

[wouster7]

@Fodderboy

"Cheesy Elf" is da title, thank you

[richardbarby]

Based on feedback so far, Phil is cheesy, and Barbie thinks I should put the dragon back in then. I'll just say Uncle Gribbly's an RGB-shifted Fire Dragon with cohesion issues.

hell no i like the look of your new list more than dragon list

[Simon]

will a list consider to be "acceptable" as long as it is within or well align with the guildlines provided from the player pack??

the reason I'm asking this is becuase personally I don't feel the guildlines are that hard to achieve and even a fully retstricted list can still be pretty hard IMO depend on the army.

surely, I don't want to bring a gun to a knife fight and at the same time I don't want to bring a wooden spoon to a knife fight.

[nik_]

Trying to create an even playing field under 8th looks to be a mammoth task, and as such I don't think that we will achieve it with our first try.
The guidelines and veto are an attempt to trim out the worst offenders.
The players pack states that lists that comply with the guidelines may still be vetoed, and I hope that we can catch anyone who wants to bring a tank to a gunfight, but I can't promise

[nik_]

Things I learnt from CTA:
The 50 Sea Guard list isn't actually that bad
Slann with know all spells in lore of Life and +1 power dice per spell is broken
Relying on combo charges with random charge distances is crap
Thunderstomp is awesome
Double rare, Fiends of Slaanesh? Good but not broken. Double flamers? probably more broken than in 7th. Double salamander units? As bad.
Terrain is critical. Playing 8th on a 7th style table gives far too much advantage to certain armies.
Random terrain is fun. Especially when it eats half a unit of bloodletters

[pete dunn]

Following on from Pilgrimage, the following restrictions have been put in place for MOAB (the next big Australian event):

1. Hills are infinitely tall.

2. 5 War Machine cap

3. All spells with a casting value of 15+ are ignored. If you roll a spell that has casting value of 15+ you may substitute it with another spell from the lore. You can roll the boosted version of a spell that has a minimum casting value less than 15.

4. No choice may be duplicated more than 3 times, including Lords, Heroes, Core.

5. Fleeing units at the end of the game count as destroyed.

These restrictions came about, I understand,  after discussions between MOAB organisers and a number of Pilgrimage players/officials.

Certainly demonstrates a move towards restrictions quicker than was the prevailing wisdom prior to the weekend.

My personal opinion is that this is very early in the piece to be introducing changes to the rule mechanics of the game.

I've posted it here so that those who don't visit the OZ forums are aware of some of the discussions/problems/solutions

Regards

Pete

[nik_]

Cheers Pete. I'm not surprised to see it happen personally. The spell change is an interesting one, and I can certainly see why they did it.

[Big D]

Hills that are infinitely tall is stupid. It means you can now hide dragons and giants behind a hill. Dumb. Better idea woud have been 1 tier hill blocks LOS to stadard infantry/cavalry, 2-tier hil blocks LOS to monstrous infantry/cavalry. Large target types S.O.O.L.