FOB 2010 FAQ thread

[Vaul]

I run an exalted hero of khorne on a juggernaut, with a great weapon.

Suppose i'm in an extremely rare situation where for some reason my juggernaut is going to strike before a model facing me, but the enemy will attack before my hero strikes with his gw.  For the sake of argument, say i'm against some sort of glass cannon type attack and I need to kill him before he strikes back. 

Can I chose to give the juggernaut the extra attack at that point - especially if i'm affected by the banner of rage?  It seems very abstract and strange.  Not disagreeing with you, I like the rulings so far!

[pete dunn]

Because they stack probably the fairest thing to do is give one to each. However the rules suggest you can assign them to the model and give no guidance on how you'd do it.

In situations like this I tend to ask "What would Jervois do"

[Vaul]

That DOES seem fair.  So one way to rule is;

- Chaos Knights with mark of khorne = +1 attack riders, +0 attacks mounts
- Chaos Knights unmarked, but with banner of rage = +1 attack riders, +0 attacks mounts
- Chaos Knights with mark of Khorne AND banner of rage = +1 Attack riders, +1 attacks mounts - same with any heroes on mounts in unit that happen to be khorne marked

nothing in the rulebook to say that you do it this way, but there is some logic to it.  Warhammer? Logic?

[nik_]

Wow, way to confuse the poor TO

As per above, Frenzy gives the Extra Attack special rule.

The Extra Attack special rule says the model gets one additional attack.

I have to agree with this. Consequently my earlier decision that riders and mounts get frenzy doesn't help you much

- Chaos Knights with mark of Khorne AND banner of rage = +1 Attack riders, +1 attacks mounts - same with any heroes on mounts in unit that happen to be khorne marked

Not sure that this is the case. Yes, extra attack can stack, but frenzy doesn't (I think ), therefore you don't get 'extra attack' twice?

My understanding was, as per Pg 82, GW had indicated that things like Hatred and Frenzy did not pass to mounts.

Page 82 explicitly mentions Frenzy, but not hatred. I can't see anywhere in the cavalry or hatred rules that says that hatred would not apply to all attacks from the whole model, if the model had hatred. Happy to be corrected if you have a page reference.

[Simon]

Page 82 explicitly mentions Frenzy, but not hatred. I can't see anywhere in the cavalry or hatred rules that says that hatred would not apply to all attacks from the whole model, if the model had hatred. Happy to be corrected if you have a page reference.

rulebook page 82

cavalry and special rules
Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider and vice versa.

dark elf army book pg 43

eternal hatred
all models with this rule Hate all opposing models..... (Last sentence) Remember that hatred also applies to mounts as long as their riders are alive.

Dark elf FAQ

Page 43 – Eternal Hatred
Change “...Dark Elves may...” to ...models with this
rule...” Ignore the last sentence.

so hatred does not apply to mounts.

[pete dunn]

And I was about to post exactly what Simon has.

As for Juggernaut, I'm assuming it has MoK so it would get Frenzy and +1A, and the rider also MoK and therefore +1.
A Chaos Steed has no Mark, it is the rider only.

[nik_]

...
so hatred does not apply to mounts.

Ignoring the last sentence makes it read 'all models with this rule Hate all opposing models'. The hatred rule applies to the model, not the rider. Therefore I would think that the mounts do get hatred. Removing the last sentence is only for clarity by making the hatred rule be as per the rulebook. It does not mean that the last sentence is incorrect or no longer applicable.

[nik_]

As for Juggernaut, I'm assuming it has MoK so it would get Frenzy and +1A, and the rider also MoK and therefore +1.

I don't have the army book, but based on Josh's earlier comment I don't think a Juggernaut has MoK, only the rider

[Big D]

...
so hatred does not apply to mounts.

Ignoring the last sentence makes it read 'all models with this rule Hate all opposing models'. The hatred rule applies to the model, not the rider. Therefore I would think that the mounts do get hatred.

And as the rider and mount are all 1 model, they only get 1 extra attack. This discussion has just become an infinity loop.

[Vaul]

while we're making so much progress resolving woc faq issues, can someone help me with a 7th ed question which most people seem to have a ruling on;

-Chaos chosen, champion, favour of the gods
-You roll at the start of the game and it's a 7, you're allowed to continue re-rolling it until it isn't a 7 or 2 (see woc book and related faq)
-Your next roll is an 8.  You modify that result down to a 7... which you aren't allowed to have, forcing another re-roll.
-This continues until you essentially get results 4-5 and 9-10 which can't be modified far enough to force a re-roll, etc

Is this whole process legal?  Another ruling would be to say that you can't modify it to something that forces you to re-roll it if you didn't roll that naturally.  But the rules aren't clear enough either way.

[pete dunn]

...
so hatred does not apply to mounts.

Ignoring the last sentence makes it read 'all models with this rule Hate all opposing models'. The hatred rule applies to the model, not the rider. Therefore I would think that the mounts do get hatred. Removing the last sentence is only for clarity by making the hatred rule be as per the rulebook. It does not mean that the last sentence is incorrect or no longer applicable.

Cold One Knights have Special Rules - Eternal Hatred, Fear, Stupidity (Pg 52 Dark Elf Book)

Cold Ones have Special Rules - Fear, Stupidity (Pg 55 Dark Elf Book)

Given rulebook page 82

Cavalry and Special Rules - Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider and vice versa.

and Hatred not being one of the exceptions then it appears Hatred does not pass to the mount.

This would apply to Dark Steeds as well - and all ridden monsters e.g. Dark Pegasus, Manticore, Black Dragon etc

[nik_]

And as the rider and mount are all 1 model, they only get 1 extra attack. This discussion has just become an infinity loop.

Except we've moved on and are discussing hatred, which gives rerolls to hit.

while we're making so much progress resolving woc faq issues, can someone help me with a 7th ed question which most people seem to have a ruling on;

-Chaos chosen, champion, favour of the gods
-You roll at the start of the game and it's a 7, you're allowed to continue re-rolling it until it isn't a 7 or 2 (see woc book and related faq)
-Your next roll is an 8.  You modify that result down to a 7... which you aren't allowed to have, forcing another re-roll.
-This continues until you essentially get results 4-5 and 9-10 which can't be modified far enough to force a re-roll, etc

Is this whole process legal?  Another ruling would be to say that you can't modify it to something that forces you to re-roll it if you didn't roll that naturally.  But the rules aren't clear enough either way.

You're right, I read all the relevant rules about 6 times, and was convinced that each option was correct about half the time. Seems to me that RAW can be interpreted either way, but it seems like RAI want chosen to never end up with results 2 or 7. Because of that, I'd be inclined to say that the process you outlined is 'legal'. As always, happy to be corrected by someone with more information than me.

Cold One Knights have Special Rules - Eternal Hatred, Fear, Stupidity (Pg 52 Dark Elf Book)

Cold Ones have Special Rules - Fear, Stupidity (Pg 55 Dark Elf Book)

Given rulebook page 82

Cavalry and Special Rules - Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider and vice versa.

and Hatred not being one of the exceptions then it appears Hatred does not pass to the mount.

This would apply to Dark Steeds as well - and all ridden monsters e.g. Dark Pegasus, Manticore, Black Dragon etc

Compelling argument, I hadn't looked at the wording in the bestiary section. I now agree.
(To be pendantic, by that logic Dark Riders (the riders) have 'Fast Cavalry' but their steeds do not - how does that work?)

Do we agree that a magic item or banner that gave hatred to 'the models in the unit' or 'the model' would allow mounts to reroll missed hits in the first round?

[Josh]

I refuse to lie down re Frenzy on Chaos mounts. 

Page 82:

If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Beserk Rage special rule, but only the ELEMENT with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack

This is very clear: if the rider is subject to frenzy, the mount doesn't get an Extra Attack. However, it is also very clear that it is possible for individual elements of the (split profile) model to each have the Frenzy rule. The Mark of Khorne grants Frenzy to the model... the model consists of two elements... the question is, do both elements get Mark of Khorne or just the overall model (meaning Khorne chariots get just one extra attack... from a single element)? Why does it have to be Khorne knights sitting on horses? Why not Khorne knights sitting on Khorne horses? What about a chariot then... it's a Khorne chariot of goodness, but only one dude gets to swing his axe twice?

Alternately, the Banner of Rage is worded slightly differently. Instead of saying the "model gains Frenzy", it reads the unit gains Frenzy (not mentioning models at all). Perhaps here it can be accepted that everything in the unit gains frenzy, not just individual models?

I kinda need a firm answer on how these will be ruled for the tournament. My list may change to suit.

IMO:
Mark of Khorne applied to all elements of a model = possibly, but unclear.
Banner of Rage applied to all elements of a model = absolutely.

[wouster7]

Hey guys,

Can we have a ruling for this now.


Cheers,

Phil.

[PaW]

@Josh
To me I think you are arguing throw back from 7th edition wording. There was no need to cover it when the book was written,
Thus i believe you may grant only a single attack to either the horse or the mount. The way the rulebook intended it.
As with Chariots , I would say same again, Steeds or Crew(plural giving you +2)

edit: sorry if this has already been clarified .. I kinda got confused to where we were at

[Simon]

@ Josh

the mark of khorne
A model with the mark of khorne is subject to frenzy

frenzy
frenzied troops have the extra attack and Itp special rule

extra attack
A model with this special rule increases his attacks by 1

so a khorne knight with mark of khorne increases his attacks by 1, which can be the knight or the horse.

And:

Banner of rage
the unit with this banner has the frenzy special rule

Page 3 of the rulebook
The citadel miniatures used to play games of warhammer are referred to as “models” in the rule that follow…..

Page 5 under “forming units”
The models that make up your warhammer army must be organised into “units”

So the models in a unit with banner of rage have the frenzy special rule, and each models get 1 extra attack and Itp special rules as above.

[nik_]

I refuse to lie down re Frenzy on Chaos mounts. 

Alright, let's see what we can do

This is very clear: if the rider is subject to frenzy, the mount doesn't get an Extra Attack. However, it is also very clear that it is possible for individual elements of the (split profile) model to each have the Frenzy rule.

Yes, I agree with this. However I think it's only going to come up in regards to a character with frenzy on a monstorous mount who also has frenzy.

The Mark of Khorne grants Frenzy to the model... the model consists of two elements... the question is, do both elements get Mark of Khorne or just the overall model (meaning Khorne chariots get just one extra attack... from a single element)? Why does it have to be Khorne knights sitting on horses? Why not Khorne knights sitting on Khorne horses? What about a chariot then... it's a Khorne chariot of goodness, but only one dude gets to swing his axe twice?

I basically agree with Simon's argument above. If both the riders and the horses had Mark of Khorne, it might be a different outcome.

Alternately, the Banner of Rage is worded slightly differently. Instead of saying the "model gains Frenzy", it reads the unit gains Frenzy (not mentioning models at all). Perhaps here it can be accepted that everything in the unit gains frenzy, not just individual models?

I think I agree with Simons interpretation above.

[Josh]

 :'( :'( :'(
Argument ended. Time to change my list...

[wouster7]

Dispell Scrolls: They have been added to the arcane items list but in most books they still feature in the common magic item list.

Q. Do Dispell scrolls need to be taken by a hero with a magic level as in the BRB?

[nik_]

A. Yes. That has always been the case, no reason why it should change now.

[Fodderboy]

In the Dawn Attack scenario, what happens if there is no room to deploy in the deployment area rolled?

Reroll, or treat it as a  6?

I played Nick's Empire last night, and it came up. I imagine Skaven might also have this problem.

[that guy the Master]

I played Nick's Empire last night, and it came up. I imagine Skaven might also have this problem.

Unit counts as destroyed and gives full VPs to opponant 

[nik_]

In the Dawn Attack scenario, what happens if there is no room to deploy in the deployment area rolled?

Reroll, or treat it as a  6?

I played Nick's Empire last night, and it came up. I imagine Skaven might also have this problem.

A. Reroll, until an area is rolled which the unit is able to fit in. If for some bizarre reason there is no room to deploy the unit anywhere, it arrives from the centre of your table edge in your first turn, at the end of the remaining moves sub-phase.

[Nicholas]

Also about the Dawn Attack scenario,

Page 6 of the rule book defines the concept of "within". The Dawn Attack scenario also uses the term "within" (page 145). Does the instance in the Dawn Attack scenario refer to the same concept as on page 6? The Dawn Attack scenario doesn't say "entirely within" for instance.

[nik_]

The scenario does say 'the entire unit must be placed ... and within 18" of" (eliding mine, for a more compelling argument )
Because of this, I would say that all parts of the unit must be 18" or less from the table edge.

To prevent possible craziness, I'm going to add to that that it is not acceptable to claim that you want to deploy your 20/30/40/50 models in a single line (or in such a way that they are more than 18" wide), in order to make them not fit in a particular deployment zone, and trigger a reroll or be forced to place them in the centre.

[Nicholas]

... all parts of the unit must be 18" or less from the table edge.

Iseewhatyoudid there

[Glenn Patel]

So, for FoB, what are the unit types on:

Earthshaker
Death Rocket
Eruption Gun (just out of curiousity, none are being fielded)
Bull Centaurs

?

Some notes:

The Earthshaker and Death Rocket are baby Hellcannons on 50mm bases. (fights like a single ogre, T5)
 Thunderstomp is probably excessive to give them. Monstrous Beast? Then again, Swiftstrider is odd.
Eruption Gun is even smaller (fights like two dwarfs with hand weapons, but T5)
 Thunderstomp would be outright ridiculous to give to it. Monstrous Beast?


Bull Centaurs are either War Beasts or Cavalry (or Unique...)

I feel they should either get Parry or the +1 to saves for being Cavalry, as they could receive the HW/Sh bonus in 7th. And of those two options, in my opinion they should count as Cavalry, since Centigors do and those are the most analogous unit in the game. (and also because this was the conclusion the book's author reached, and I was using his FAQ when designing my list...)

[nik_]

Q. What are the unit types for CD units?

A. Use the values found in the provisional FAQ