WHFB 8th Ed... Closed Lists?

[Josh]

Just wondering everyone's thoughts on this one. For some time I've been hoping there would be some sort of move towards closed lists in NZ tournaments mainly due to closed lists being the way that GW intended Fantasy to be played when writing the rules/books. With the release of 8th edition, it not only provides opportunity for a fresh start, but I feel that with more one-use items in the game (such as some of the new common magic items, i.e. potion of strength, frog scroll, etc) it may be time for a change.

The way I see it working in a tournament:
1. Players submit full lists for checking by judges/TO
2. Players turn up to the tournament with a copy of the full list (incl magic items), and a second copy without any hidden/magic items
3. Pre-game players swap the partial lists (not showing hidden items)
4. During the game, players mark down one use items consumed, etc.

I would be interested to hear people's opinions about which system they prefer and why? I would particularly be interested in a TO's point of view too.Let the non-comp related discussion begin!

[Vaul]

Well it's certainly not a new debate, I think the main points are already well known;

Pros:

*More use for certain items that a person would not normally take, either because they are too easily countered once spotted by your opponent, or because the items themselves assume closed list, such as the 'crystal ball' and other types of items.

*Adds a 'poker' dimension to the game involving mind games and psychology

Cons:

*Promotes espionage and other concerns, where your place in the community actually can add or subtract from your advantages in tournament games... changes how you approach practice games, people talking about who they played last in between tournament rounds, what items their opponent had etc.  And as a side note, I personally would be discouraged from covering my own tournament practice games on youtube.

*The determination of game outcome may shift away from good planning and judgement, to what can seem to some as a more 'trivial' set of cases where a player can be simply 'caught out' by a gimmicky item that shouldn't really have had such a huge effect.  Some people prefer the challenge that comes with problems like 'what is he likely to have, am I prepared to charge given that he might have an item that makes his unit stubborn' etc.  Other people prefer the challenge of how to deal with what is known to be in play.  It's a little like comparing card games with board games like chess/checkers. 

[Simon]

open list.

there are just way too many game winning combos available, closed lists will just encourage even more dirty/harder lists.

[PaW]

Closed Lists also favour those who know the army books inside out.
Knowing an army book leads to guessing of what items each character/unit probably contains.

[grumpy old smurf]

open. with judging done  by 3 judges AND at least %10 of the comp mark being given by players u face. they know the shitty combos u have hidden in your min max army designed to take the comp rules to the letter and yet get no penalties associated with comp.

[Neil Williamson]

According to this site
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18156

All army lists have to be disclosed now - no more closed lists. Probaly part of the attempt to make things more transparent and open like the huge list of common magic items.

For tournaments I don't think closed lists work very well. Key magic items easily go around the room. Eg the time I took the killing blow v large target virtue, everone new about it soon after I killed a giant early on in the tournament.

Things like assassins and fanatics could be listed but not "allocated" to a unit but written down prior to battle and then revealed as required. I think this would add some surprise and bluff back into the game. Will this be allowed under 8th?- who knows.

[pukeko]

  Open 

 As a newbie to touraments i do not know many of the armies and combos so open is fair on me
    and other new players as we dont get unfairly caught out   
  If we know about it and then get caught out then its our fault lol

[grumpy old smurf]

yeh man...... nothing worse than going to a torney then seeing a vet go out of their way to smash a newbie into little pieces and be nice about pantsing them and NOT explaining the combo that destroyed their hopes and dreams.... shakes hands as newb gives max sports cause he was nice bout it, and vet walks away laughing his arse off...

i cant believe he never saw that one coming! hahahahahaha. goddamn im good. sux 2 be him. im having fun. wonder when he realises i just screwed him. and he never saw me cheat either. hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha haha...


DONT LAUGH.... I have seen this done in many torneys and games over the last 20 years..... u know who u are......

[Philfy]

Nothing worse either than mercilessly smashing a newb who just happens to catch a bad matchup against a more experienced player - and them giving bad soft scores due to losinng in a big way.

Happens a lot too - and another reason why player comp is best left out of the equation (or at least during a tournament when knee-jerk reactionns are more likely).

Slow players are another gripe of mine as well.  I may take the occasional smoke-break, but usually make up for that with quicker turns.

[NeckFace]

i'm down for closed lists in any system

harden up ya poofs!

*scurries away to convert up his Doom of Malantai*

[Josh]

It honestly doesn't bother me, open or closed, as long as the players know before the game and are left on equal footing. In response to smashing a noob who doesn't know about a particular combo, that can't happen very often. In 95% of tournament games I've played, I'm playing against people who have a pretty good feel for the game, thus have a pretty good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of my army. Of course knowing the items helps, but is it essential for a balanced game? The other 5% of opponents, it doesn't matter if I explain exactly how I'm going to win... they typically just aren't good enough to stop it.

An example of my TS3 army, closed list:
Lord on Dragon
Obviously going to be killy regardless of what he's carrying, he costs 700 odd points
BSB on foot
Normal exalted stats suggests he's quite survivable and a bit choppy
Lvl 1 mage on foot
Clearly a scroll caddy, what else would he be?
Fast cav + hounds
No surprises
Warriors
May have a magical banner, not many choices iin the WoC book though
Chosen
Champ may have a magic item, and you'll find out pretty quick the unit has frenzy (forced charges)
Dragon Ogres, Forsaken
Can't take magic items

So, I don't think that closed lists necessarily place unknowing people at a disadvantage, although this is clearly army/build dependent.

I like open lists too and think that they should remain the preference if most people prefer it that way, but I would like to see a little variety in tournaments. If I ever get around to running an event one day, I guess I can find out first hand the kind of cheesy mofos that thrive in a closed list environment. 

[Simon]

I guess I can find out first hand the kind of cheesy mofos that thrive in a closed list environment.  

some cheesy mofos probably do it open list anyway~ infernal puppet, black tongue, chaos dragon, gateway, 2 units of knights?? anyone??

[Josh]

chaos dragon

Phew! That was my Equinox list up until that point. Wouldn't want to be labeled now would I?

[Glenn Patel]

So what stops people from going "yep, he totally has another scroll"?

Heck, my memory can be bad enough at times that I go 'yeah he has this' and then check and go 'wait, no he does not' (worst with units and musicians, but I could see it happening with items).

It's... it can be dodgy, you know?

[omegakai]

I guess I can find out first hand the kind of cheesy mofos that thrive in a closed list environment.  

some cheesy mofos probably do it open list anyway~ infernal puppet, black tongue, chaos dragon, gateway, 2 units of knights?? anyone??

cant be me
i havent got black tongue.