Comp...

[dave grant]

I might regret this but I still peruse these boards to see what you guys are up to, it seems all the topics I am reading at the minute - specific tournaments (ie in soldier), 8th ed rumours.... seem to devolve into a comp discussion ... ie during 8th ed rumours:

"Because of comp I've never played in a fantasy tourney. It is bollocks.

Comp is a Phlegmatic ideal."



So, I though I would post a topic, so people can vent their issues, and I can read some other threads in peace. So my thoughts.

I had a great discussion re Comp with John M a week or 2 ago in my garage (here in UK), specifically UK vs US, vs NZ.

Having played in multiple environments, my thoughts are:
I like comp - it gives variety to the game by 'changing the goalposts'

I do not think it it necessary / wanted / possible to have one comp system that 'works' (even if this is just GW rules 'balancing')

No matter what the comp system, good players do well - so balaning armies is obviously not that much of an issue

It us up to TO's to sort out comp. People can then choose to play under those rules or not. If you don't like the comp - don't go.Comp discussions (like this one) tend not to achieve much, other than bad feeling.

NZ biggest issue, is therefore lack of events. In UK there are enough events, so that no matter what style of armies you want to play with (no comp, super fluffy)... there are enough events that will mean most people will have the kind of armies you want to play against

So to the quote above - then why don't you get of your arse and organise a tournament with no comp. IF people want that, then people will come, and you can run more. If you don't (time, laziness...) what right have you to complain about events other people are organising?

Enjoy!

[Lezle]

"So to the quote above - then why don't you get of your arse and organise a tournament with no comp. IF people want that, then people will come, and you can run more. If you don't (time, laziness...) what right have you to complain about events other people are organising?"


Firstly, I need not explain my motives to you or to anyone, how-ever:

I have organized the Mordheim tourney for Can Opener... which has no comp... and people have come... because they want something different... and something that has no comp for a change...


And further-more:


"Because of comp I've never played in a fantasy tourney. It is bollocks.

Comp is a Phlegmatic ideal."


In what part of my above quote is a complaint or a dig at anyone or anything that anyone is do-ing in particular? Where is it then that I am complaining about a certain tourney, organizer, or player?

Now to quote you: my "right" is in stating what I have stated; and so I say again, with thanks for highlighting its truthfulness:


Comp is a Phlegmatic ideal.


Lezle

[Philfy]

I for one am always amused that even though I allow Special Characters at "Over The Top" usually only 2-3 people take them, most people choosing not to. 

Have also noted that those who complain the most about comp being utilised, seem also to be those who try and rort it.  Often by taking softer armies and complaining when they get hit for having a harder version of that "soft" army type.

Even here in NZ we still have quite a variety of tournament structures.  Ranging from Fluffycon style through to "Go nuts" Tin Soldier.  And certain people do obviously "vote with their feet".

The only issue I have with comp is...  wild misconceptions of marking it - hence why I've found panels to be far better (as a player and a TO) over player judging.

[Fujin]

Even here in NZ we still have quite a variety of tournament structures.  Ranging from Fluffycon style through to "Go nuts" Tin Soldier.  And certain people do obviously "vote with their feet".

Agreed.

Between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, NiCon, NatCon and all the rest there are a LOT of events in NZ per capita. And people certainly do vote with their feet. I've seen/heard various players note the absence from Tin Soldier of a number of "names" from the community who either couldn't clear the leave pass with the boss or looked at the event, what it offered, and the comp system being used, perceived the type of lists that were likely to appear, and opted not to attend based on that.

[pete dunn]

Checking on RankingsHQ (www.rankingshq .com) there were 17 Fantasy tournaments in NZ in the past 12 months. I reckon this is at least double what we had three years ago.

The greater number gives much more opportunity to try different comp systems and tournament structures and this is a pretty healthy thing. It also gives a degree of variety that allows people to choose what type of tournament they like to attend (or not attend).

Personally I appreciate all the efforts of those people who put up their hands to organise and run events.

Regards

Pete

[dave grant]

Pete, very true and well done to all concerned.

However my point was that Comp discussions are much less of an issue in UK, because there are many more events. Allowing people who enjoy 'fluffyhammer' to attend at least 5-6 'fluffy events in a year... similarily for other types of comp. As you say, the more event NZ gets the more it is able to cater to individuals 'comp-preferences'



Lezle - sorry if you felt I was 'getting' at you. That quote was just the last thing I read, in a thread that wasn't really about comp, that prompted the post about comp in general.

[Lezle]

Apology accepted. I know what you mean. 


Yes, one would imagine with a population of that size, being able to pick and choose would be bliss for a goodly number of people.


And think me not a fool, you mob -I can very much see a need for comp... only, its mere existence and reason for being grates the teeth greatly. Them's the breaks.

Lezle

[daemion]

comphammer is crapballs and i look forward to seeing what type of compwank is proposed with the new rule set. and what comp system will take over in fantasy 8th ed with the torney scene.

[John M]

Comp or no comp you still have to play well to win and its peoples ability that in the end determines the results of most games and most tournaments - why you tend to see the same names at the top all the time.

Comp systems in use over last 18 months have been fine - is going to take time to get anything sorted out for 8th Ed especially if the erratas take too long to come out

[daemion]

hell no bro, wont take long at all... bill gates is the new CEO of GW... he released a patch(oops-errata) already in the inside cover of the tome of tome-i-ness that is 8th.

yep. tried and tested armies built/pushing to the absolute limit of the various comp systems with good generals using them make the top all the time... and good em too. wish i min maxed my armies into specific winning combos...(within the comp requirements of course...)

...u know its a crapballs combo they use but u cant do anything bout it cause it fits the comp requirements to the letter...

anyone been in that position before?

Which is why comp should be solely player/peer based... That'd screw em.

[Ry.S]

Which is why comp should be solely player/peer based... That'd screw em.

Not at all probably help them more than anything. Since most new players who get tabled will more than likely hand out 5's rather than 1's because the bloke that just took all there men off was a good sportsman.

Good players end up at top because there good players? Makes sense right.

[daemion]

totally.  good players end up at the top. agreed.

a new player would prob do that round 1 giving them max marks...... then they have to turn on the smarm charm offensive as they claw their way up.

can u imagine dirty old vod, kitson, rob sadler, or reid pittams and chris townley etc etc giving max marks to each other when they can see the nasty arse combos taken within the limits of the comp rules? i think not.

i played like a good sport yet u comped me low? why?

cause your army is arse and u know it.

[Ry.S]

They would give fair marks and sports hit like any veteran should, i know for a fact that some players will give away easy points to help with the soft scores peer was bad 3 years ago(when the tournament seen was dead and dieing) and it hasn't gotten any better(peer that is).

The NZ community offers events for every one.

[daemion]

agree with u again bud.

i just hate comphammer as it is.

No one takes fun armies anymore.
Only encourages people to min max to a set limit per different event. (no matter what the comp rules...)

yep. they would give fair marks like any vet would. i have seen them all give fair marks. but they know when they are being screwed... just like any good player should.

[J_S]

Wouldn't it be sweet if there were miniature wargames out there that were balanced enough so that comp wasn't an absolute necessity in order to establish at least a semi-competitive environment?

That sure would be nice. Then you could play exactly what you want all the time.

[Josh]

No one takes fun armies anymore.

I could name a few...

Wouldn't it be sweet if there were miniature wargames out there that were balanced enough so that comp wasn't an absolute necessity in order to establish at least a semi-competitive environment?

That sure would be nice. Then you could play exactly what you want all the time.

JS shoots... he scores!


My two cents on comp:
1) It sucks, but it's always going to be necessary. GW is just incapable of balancing the game to a point where a non-comped environment would resemble anything fun.
2) It's needed because players are competitive. It's easy to blame players by spouting on about people not playing with fun armies, but the majority will always play in tournaments to do well, thus try give themselves the best chance of winning with a selected army.
3) It's great fun to argue about. Honestly, forums would die without a comp discussion every now and then.

Summery: Comp is needed because people like to win and the game is unbalanced. Comp is fun to argue about.

[J_S]

Summery: Comp is needed because people like to win and the game is unbalanced. Comp is fun to argue about.

Comp is kind of like hiring a small, temperamental man to pump hot water into your shower manually since the custom pump that came with your expensive mass-production shower has a fundamental flaw that stops it being used between the hours of 6-10am and 8-12pm.

But by god, it's a good looking shower. And everyone is using it, so it must be worth it!

[Glenn Patel]

Hey, it's easy to do skirmish level fantasy wargaming right - even GW has managed it.

[J_S]

Hey, it's easy to do skirmish level fantasy wargaming right - even GW has managed it.

Mordheim and Necromunda are awesome fun games, but they aren't designed to be competitive (or balanced) in the least. Different side of the coin - GW is great at making fun, unbalanced and non-competitive games.
That's why you need comp - to metagame an ornamental hobby game into a balanced competitive challenge.

[Glenn Patel]

*shrug*

The recent Mordheim event didn't use comp. Just saying.

[daemion]

becuase it doesnt need it cause its more balanced than fantasy and the players enter into the spirit of the game and make it worthwhile/fun and fair to play.