Guardcon Fantasy Ruleset - 7th or 8th?

[pete dunn]

Nick,

Can we have an early call on what edition ruleset you are going to use for Guardcon in September. From the GW announcement it appears 8th Ed will be out in early July.

Thanks

Pete

[that guy the Master]

Nick/Pete,
A similar situation came up with one of the Flames of War GTs. At that time the latest edition had been out for a month or two before the GT. Interweb people wanted to stick with the old edition and the GT was held with the old rules on account of a percieved advantage for the playtesters. I think in the end people regretted making such a fuss.
Ant

[pete dunn]

Two years ago Fields of Blood used the new 5th Edition 40k rules which were released in early August. This gave a five week lead-in time.

There were no problems at FoB from using the new set^*.

The NZ Masters this year will definitely be using 8th Edition

Pete

^*Even though 4th Edn was a much superior game IMNSHO 

[Simon]

I think it greatly depends on how the rule changes.

if the rumors on warseer forum are correct, the new edition is going to affect many ppl army lists.

I recommend to wait until the new edition to come out first, then decide.

[omegakai]

I think waiting is a bad idea. as people may then need to paint all new armies and or book balance may change ALOT
its best to go with the devil you know rather then the one you dont,
i suggest  to keep the current balance and use 7th

[Derick]

I think waiting is a bad idea. as people may then need to paint all new armies and or book balance may change ALOT
its best to go with the devil you know rather then the one you dont,
i suggest  to keep the current balance and use 7th

Maybe we should roll back to 6th edition? 

Keep moving forward.
We allow army books to be used that have been released a month before an event. The new edition is just a little bit more than an Army book, and you've got 2 months to paint any extra models. The last FOB I had to paint a whole army in 2 months - so I cheated and borrowed a few of Anthony's.

[grumpy old smurf]

roll a dice. 1,2,3 7th ed. 4,5,6 8th ed. sorted. stops all the moaning.

[nik_]

Personal inclination is to go with 8th edition, but that is not official in any way yet.

[grumpy old smurf]

true dat.... cant make a choice till averyone has seen and done their changes etc.....

[grumpy old smurf]

although it is all over the GW webpage and stuff saying july is warhammer fantasy! rah rah rah!

[Josh]

Why is this a debate? Of course it should be 8th ed. What's the point in not swapping over asap? Why wait to see what it's like before making a decision, any chance of players deciding they don't like 8th and continuing to play 7th at the clubs?

keep the current balance and use 7th

I assume your use of the word 'balance' is something foreign to my understanding.

[Simon]

Why is this a debate? Of course it should be 8th ed. What's the point in not swapping over asap? Why wait to see what it's like before making a decision, any chance of players deciding they don't like 8th and continuing to play 7th at the clubs?

because 8th edition rumored to be a "game changing" edition. unlike previous edition changes, it is not a "minor" change to make the rules better, but a complete change with the fundamental.

if the rumors are as forshadowed. 8th edition will greatly affect many army books and power level of each armies. Personally I don't think 2 months are enough for the TO to review the new rules and "re-rank" the tiers in order to give an "accurate" composition score.

eg. lizardmen can no longer have a powerful slann and the EOTG becuase the Lord/heroes is capped at 25% (562.5 points)
or high elves are forced to take more cores and less specials becuase core is restricted to be at least 25%.

also getting rid of "auto break by outnumbering fear causing enemies" rule will make many fear causing armies a lot weaker.. etc

nevertheless, I am happy with either edition becuase I have muiltple armies to choose from.

However I feel there will be a great reduction in attendee at this year Guardcon if Nick decides to use 8th edition, simply becuase I don't think many ppl will go out and buy the rulebook as soon as it comes out, go home, write a new army list, buy lots of models, paint lots of models, and test play it in just 2 months.

  

[nik_]

Personally I don't think 2 months are enough for the TO to review the new rules and "re-rank" the tiers in order to give an "accurate" composition score.

Don't go preempting the players pack now

I don't think many ppl will go out and buy the rulebook as soon as it comes out, go home, write a new army list, buy lots of models, paint lots of models, and test play it in just 2 months.

That's certainly what I will be doing. You won't be?

[pete dunn]

However I feel there will be a great reduction in attendee at this year Guardcon if Nick decides to use 8th edition, simply becuase I don't think many ppl will go out and buy the rulebook as soon as it comes out, go home, write a new army list, buy lots of models, paint lots of models, and test play it in just 2 months.

When 40k went from 4th Edn to 5th Edn six weeks before Fields of Blood 2008, the numbers that turned up exceeded the 2007 event - even though it wasn't in Auckland and wasn't run by GW. As TO for that event I received no communication from anybody that they weren't coming because I used the "new" rules.

Personally I see it as an opportunity to bill the event as the first to use the new rules. Personally I know that post HRIII I'll be jumping at the opportunity to try out the new edition.

I'm interested to see what rules Call to Arms uses - I'm hoping they'll choose 8th but suspect they'll go with 7th

Pete

[Philfy]

Why is this a debate? Of course it should be 8th ed.

+1

4 weeks is ample time.  Has worked as a lead-in for Army books since time began.  Bit of a no-brainer really.

[Simon]

That's certainly what I will be doing. You won't be?

Yes, I will defintely buy the rulebook and the models straight away, but I won't be assembling them and painting them straight away becuase I never like last minute painting and I like to plan my painting timetable and not rush through.

When 40k went from 4th Edn to 5th Edn six weeks before Fields of Blood 2008, the numbers that turned up exceeded the 2007 event - even though it wasn't in Auckland and wasn't run by GW. As TO for that event I received no communication from anybody that they weren't coming because I used the "new" rules.

true, it can go either way.

as mentioned above, I'm happy with either edition becuase I have multiple armies to choose from, I will just pick the most suitable army I have.

[wouster7]

I for one will not be speculating on what changes 8th will bring. I'll get it when I open the book up. Which will also be the same day I give up 7th ed like a dirty cancer causing cigarette

[Fujin]

Conflicted. Definitely sitting on the fence here.


Not sure the comparison of 4th edition to 5th edition 40k is so valid in this instance. Did 5th edition 40k affect the makeup of all armies with regards to changing how many or how much you could take of HQ/Troops etc? Was it rumoured that 5th edition 40k would radically change the game system by altering major phases of the game (as magic is possibly going to change drastically in WHFB)?

I seem to recall the treatement of cover and "cover saves" changed considerably in 40k. But did the rest of the game change as much as it is rumoured 8th edition Fantasy will change? Were there major changes to the fundamentals of the game?

Genuine questions actually - I gave up on 40k with the entry of 5th edition because it fairly ruined the armies I was using and I just didn't have it in me to collect and paint a bunch of new stuff. It also sucked arse but that's just my opinion


If the 8th edition rulebook is out at the start of July that gives potential participants up to 3 months of reading, online debates, errata and FAQs (ok, these are unlikely to be out within 3 months ), playtesting, collecting, army "rebuilding" etc. When will army lists for Fields be due? Hopefully not 4 weeks before the event!!!

I also wonder if it will affect the number of attendees to Fields of Blood. I think it would still hit the magic 40 for thr maximum rankings points but I'd be MUCH less optimistic about hitting 70-80 players (which it was well on the way towards hitting last year).

And what happens to army composition scoring? Do we start from scratch? Do we let the supposed percentages do the work for us and ONLY use a few hard caps to limit the worst stuff? Or do we place on the TO's shoulders the burden of responsibility that comes with stepping into the absolute unknown by trying something different with no precedent to determine whether or not it will even work or be successful?

Will the TO have to allow 3.5 hours per game as players struggle to argue the finer interpretation s of the new rulebook (or even the basics if the changes are substantial)? Bags not being an umpire at that tournament!


And if the book is released at the end of July and we have less than 8 weeks to digest a vastly different game (and 4 weeks to build a tournament list)?

Oh dear. Trainsmash.


What would be REALLY great is if Call to Arms used 8th edition first so we at least saw it operate in a tournament environment.

[Simon]

@ Fujin

gold~ everything I want to say in one perfectly written post.


@ all

just want to clarify, please don't get me wrong here, personally I am looking forward to 8th edition as much as all you do and want to see it in practice.

but I personally feel that 2 months prior to the tournament is simply not enough time, for some of the amateur players (such as myself) to get familiar with the rules and rebuild an new army.

however, having said that, I would like to wait for the book to come out first before I nag on.

Genuine questions actually - I gave up on 40k with the entry of 5th edition because it fairly ruined the armies I was using and I just didn't have it in me to collect and paint a bunch of new stuff. It also sucked arse but that's just my opinion

rumors said, new Necron coming out in Oct 2010. 

[Fujin]

oooooh... thread hijack. Necrons in October?! That might just lure me back to the dark side!

[pete dunn]

What would be REALLY great is if Call to Arms used 8th edition first so we at least saw it operate in a tournament environment.

See I think that is a real crap idea as once CTA is out of the way there is only four weeks until Guardcon. By the time a decision is made, three weeks.

Somebody is going to have to have some kahunas and make a decision. And the earlier they make the decision the better.

Personally I'd be less inclined to attend Guardcon if 7th was used as I'd have been playing 8th for two months. Changing back would seem pretty shite.

Pete

P.S. 5th Ed 40k was massively different to 4th Ed - move to TLOS, removal of area terrain as it was played, change in army make up so only Troops scoring, Kill Points - if you didn't notice much difference then it was probably best you gave it away  

[Fujin]

Ah... thought CtA was earlier that that. Cripes... what tournament am I thinking about?

No, I noticed a bunch of changes from 4th to 5th edition but it's been so long since I've played 40k I've pretty much forgotten how it all worked. Cheers for the nostalgia though. The changes you've quoted are sombre reminders as to why I stopped playing that particular game.

Still seems like an... interesting idea to format the event in a new system when you have little/no confirmed idea about how it will affect the community.


@ Nick - I wonder how many other players would "less inclined" to attend? Might even pay to email your contacts and get a response/poll from the wider community. It would be a pity for a decision to made (either way) based on the clamouring of a vocal minority that happen have access to this forum - after all the people posting here aren't and don't represent the entire gaming community. Guess you can't please everyone...


We await your decision with bated breath. I don't own (and can't afford) a bunch of armies with a huge range of figures and likely won't have time and money to purchase/build/paint new stuff if I'm forced to make big changes to what I already have in time for Fields but then... most/all of what I use tends to be borrowed anyway

[grumpy old smurf]

meh.... i say ROLL THE DICE! ROLL THE DICE!

..... being a true 40gay player i didnt find the change over from 4th to 5th much of a problem. was used to playing flames of war and thats what 5th is anyway! (Sorry Fuj, i wasnt upset that those damn necrons of yours got nerfed in 5th! looking forward to playing a few games with ya when the new dex comes out tho!!!!)

but being a cityguard run event it definitely falls on the poor old T.O to decide... Pete does have a valid point here. CTA is using the 8th.... maybe we should too? dunno. im not a fantasy player but it makes sense to me. July is a long way away from guardcon.... The cityguard prides itself on having some of the best fantasy players in NZ.... I'm sure a ruleset change wont affect that eh?  

[Josh]

I still think there's more than enough time. Honestly, the day 8th ed hits the shelves is the day that 7th ed dies. No one will be playing it (7th) during the 8-12 weeks leading up to CTA and FoB, so wouldn't it be more confusing to insist everyone use the old rules? As said here a number of times, as soon as 8th is out, people will be buying the book, debating the rules, play testing new armies, etc. Compare that with the 4 weeks allowed for players to get to grips with a new army book which they might bother reading and may have a single game against.
Trust the nerdy-ness of the community. We'll be all over 8th in no time flat.

[pete dunn]

July 10th is official release date

[omegakai]

I still think there's more than enough time. Honestly, the day 8th ed hits the shelves is the day that 7th ed dies. No one will be playing it (7th) during the 8-12 weeks leading up to CTA and FoB, so wouldn't it be more confusing to insist everyone use the old rules? As said here a number of times, as soon as 8th is out, people will be buying the book, debating the rules, play testing new armies, etc. Compare that with the 4 weeks allowed for players to get to grips with a new army book which they might bother reading and may have a single game against.
Trust the nerdy-ness of the community. We'll be all over 8th in no time flat.

I think your wrong here in so many ways josh.  

.1 you’re assuming that everyone will have access or “get” a new rule book the day it hits the shelves
.2 you’re assuming that everyone will have time to read the 90-120 odd pages and have100 % clarity on the new edition.
.3  your assuming that 8th is going to be well strutted, make sense, and  run smoothly.

I for one am not keen on the ideas as I believe it absolutely screws with the balance of the current armies, and will leave a lot of people out on a limb in terms of army building painting and preparation.
For  example some untis from 7th to 8th maybe become sub optimal choices, or change standings IE go from core to special. This may mean several people will have to paint mountains of troops with only a few weeks to buy, assemble, and paint.
Examples of such changes in the past would be sliver helms, going from an optimal core choice, to a sub optimal special.
Pretty much everything hard in the chaos rule book went from core to special, who’s not to say we won’t see repeats of these, you won’t be able to accurately gauge the impact of the rule change until you see the finished product.
I honestly think its best to go with 7th ed, have a nice final event with a good send off, and take all the hassle out.

[Fujin]

.2 you’re assuming that everyone will have time to read the 90-120 odd pages and have100 % clarity

This made me laugh out loud. I don't think I've managed over 90% clarity for 7th edition yet!

[Simon]

.2 you’re assuming that everyone will have time to read the 90-120 odd pages and have100 % clarity

90-120 odd pages??


Not trying to scare you, if you think the 7th edition rulebook is a lot of reading, it only has 270 pages.
 
the 8th edition rulebook is “528 pages”, that’s an extra 258 pages.


And I can ensure you that it won’t be cheap either.

[Big D]

For  example some untis from 7th to 8th maybe become sub optimal choices, or change standings IE go from core to special. This may mean several people will have to paint mountains of troops with only a few weeks to buy, assemble, and paint.
Examples of such changes in the past would be sliver helms, going from an optimal core choice, to a sub optimal special.
Pretty much everything hard in the chaos rule book went from core to special, who’s not to say we won’t see repeats of these, you won’t be able to accurately gauge the impact of the rule change until you see the finished product.

Changing units from Core to Special or similar is not something that will happen with the rulebook, unless they doa complete reset like they did with ravening hordes. Those changes only come from new Army books so this arguement is irrelevant.

I challenge you to find anyone with 100% clarity and understanding of 7th ed as it stands now. 99% of players will be all over the new rulebook like white on rice.We always are. Those that don't buy it will borrow it, download it, photocopy it.

The only balance issues will come if there are major changes to game mechanics (ie magic before movement) and these will be immediately obvious and will indeed be shouted from the rooftops by GW upon or before release giving us plenty of time to adjust to them.

[Big D]

.2 you’re assuming that everyone will have time to read the 90-120 odd pages and have100 % clarity

90-120 odd pages??


Not trying to scare you, if you think the 7th edition rulebook is a lot of reading, it only has 270 pages.
 
the 8th edition rulebook is “528 pages”, that’s an extra 258 pages.


And I can ensure you that it won’t be cheap either.

While the new BRB may be 500+ pages, 350 of those will be hobby related as usual.