8th Edition: FACTS and observations.

[Vaul]

Well, got myself a copy of the pdf scan, and read the new edition cover to cover.  If someone offers to buy me a pack of beers, I may even print it out and bring it to the club this weekend!  Nah... you'll all have it by then no doubt  Plus i'm sure you've all been reading it at GW or vagabonds where they have open copies.

My observations about things I didn't already know from reading rumour threads:

* Wizards that fail a casting attempt or dispel attempt can't try again for the rest of the phase
* Any natural dice roll of less than 3 automatically fails (for dispel or casting)
* A pair of 6's on the casting roll is irresistable force.... but miscast AS WELL - your spell goes off, then you roll on the table after it is resolved

This means that your magic phase is going to be a fair bit riskier - wouldn't want to single dice invocation for fear of ending your fun too early, but there isn't exactly a 'safe' alternative since rolling any more than 2-3 dice risks a high chance of miscast.

* Dispel scrolls actually have remained the same, thank goodness - despite rumours to the contrary
* The list of common magic items is very large and actually sees the return of items such as the +3 attacks sword (currently HE only) and the potion of +3 strength

Looking back over my warriors of chaos army lists, taking a lord (on horse), BSB, and 1-2 level 2 mages, with all units and combat characters using the mark of khorne suddenly looks more appealing.  Frenzy is far easier to control if you have good leadership, so warshrine on your boss with favour of the gods could easily get him to LD10, and then you've got a bunch of units that don't always have to charge, can't be redirected thanks to the new redirection rules (take a LD test to charge someone else instead of the eaglebait), and lord has monstrous 9attacks/str8 etc.  

* The miscast table features nothing that helps your wizard out, and has no rebound anymore.  The chances of being removed from play are slightly higher - this happens if you roll 2-4 but only then on a further 1-3 on a d6 roll.  Many of the effects involve damage to surrounding troops.
*you MUST choose your lore when you write your army list!  Not before the game starts.

It's a tough one deciding whether to take a lord or pair of level 2's now.  A lord is much safer to cast spells with, since you add your casting level to the roll - less likely to fail the attempt and end your phase essentially.  But with multiple wizards (for say, empire, or undivided WOC) you get access to multiple lores.  Leadership also seems much more important now as you can re-roll all LD tests in BSB range and not just break tests.  I assume they will change the rules for empire's imperial banner (I'll take the griffon standard in the meantime).

* Lores of magic themselves have changed fairly drastically, I think less than half of the 7th ed spells have survived.  Some spells from previous editions have made a modified return.  No unseen lurker.  Pit of shades now scatters.  Fireball has 3 different casting values, you pick whether you want to try for d6, 2d6 or 3d6 str4 hit etc.  Having only spent a SHORT time thinking about the lores, my favourites so far are fire, beasts and life.  

Fire: You do more damage to a unit if you hit it multiple times with multiple spells.  Again it has the most straightforwar d damage spells, so it will always be useful.  In the context of the new rule where you pick your list when the army is written, it's going to be best to go for a lore that will always be at least somewhat useful, rather than taking an anti-armour lore (metal) and face tomb kings or something.

Life: Has a spell that remains in play, and then gives you a 2+ ability to ignore miscasts.  You can now cast remains in play spells and then continue to cast other spells.  Every time you get a spell off, your wizard gets a wound back.  Some of the buff unit spells in this lore are fantastic.  You can ressurrect your guys even though they aren't undead with this lore!  

Beasts: You can make your characters super powerful with big str/atk buffs.  Hunters spear has a high casting value, it's more like a cannon ball than bolt thrower at the higher one.  And the rumours were true, you can indeed turn into a stupidly powerful monster if you roll high enough :S

* max 25% lords
* max 25% heroes
* min 25% core
* max 50% special
* max 25% rare

2250 divided by 4 = 562.5, no more star dragons or tzeentch sorceror lords on dragons in this edition at that points value.  Good thing too, dragons seem like they could be just as powerful, if not much more so.  Breath weapons work in combat, cause 2d6 hits, which counts towards combat resolution! What??

No more than 3 duplicate specials (so you CAN have 3 I think) and no more than 2 duplicate rares (so you CAN duplicate rare if I read this right)

That's about it for now.  The stuff about striking order was true - but great weapons still strike last, and ASF is still ASF.  You can re-roll to hit if you have ASF as well as higher initiative than the enemy.  Not sure what happens to high elf swordmasters, but i'm glad I still own two units of dragon princes (initiative 6 for the win).

[richardbarby]

with cannons and stone throwers are they now place template and roll scatter dice as was the rumor

if so twin earthshakers sound fun

[omegakai]

you might find that the target vaule of armies will increase with the new Ed, so dont count out dragons or slans +EOTG just yet.

[Simon]

It's a tough one deciding whether to take a lord or pair of level 2's now.  A lord is much safer to cast spells with, since you add your casting level to the roll - less likely to fail the attempt and end your phase essentially.  But with multiple wizards (for say, empire, or undivided WOC) you get access to multiple lores.  Leadership also seems much more important now as you can re-roll all LD tests in BSB range and not just break tests.  I assume they will change the rules for empire's imperial banner (I'll take the griffon standard in the meantime).

Personally I will definitely go for 2 level 2s.
Advantages of level 4
Extra +2 to dispel
Extra +2 to cast

Advantages of 2 level 2s
2 arcane items
2 lores and have 2 base spell twices
A dreaded miscast won’t completely remove your magic phase and magic defence.
Failing a spell will only prevent 1 mage from casting
1 extra power dice per game

2250 divided by 4 = 562.5, no more star dragons or tzeentch sorceror lords on dragons in this edition at that points value.  Good thing too, dragons seem like they could be just as powerful, if not much more so.  Breath weapons work in combat, cause 2d6 hits, which counts towards combat resolution! What??

I think breath weapon is now 1 use only?? Can u double check?

No more than 3 duplicate specials (so you CAN have 3 I think) and no more than 2 duplicate rares (so you CAN duplicate rare if I read this right)

Yes you are right, so you can have 2 RBTs and 2 hydras and still fit under the 25% rare cap. Dark elf might be the new broken.

That's about it for now.  The stuff about striking order was true - but great weapons still strike last, and ASF is still ASF.  You can re-roll to hit if you have ASF as well as higher initiative than the enemy.  Not sure what happens to high elf swordmasters, but i'm glad I still own two units of dragon princes (initiative 6 for the win).

Phoenix Guards are getting the biggest boost, with ASF and I6, they will almost always strike first with re-roll to hit against most things. Their 4+ ward save also makes them less vulnerable to the high return attacks in the new combat rules.

If you give the phoenix guards the MR2 magic banner, they can get up to 2+ WARD SAVE against magic. 

Swordmasters will get lots of attacks, but unfortunately with their low toughness and low armor saves, they just can’t survive the huge amount of return attacks. So I think it is time to trade in your swordmasters for the Phoenix guards

[Vaul]

Well I went for PG instead of swordsmasters in 7th anyway ^_^ But I think in reality you want white lions.  Being able to have a supporting attack is more important for them, while the swordsmasters get one attack coming through the ranks, the white lions make that attack with str6.  And more of them will survive into combat - plus you don't need to take a million of them in order to get stubborn ^^

Darren was right though, sea guard are probably where it's at.  Every model in the unit can shoot with their bows, and every model can attack in close combat as well.  With ASF, and with re-rolls against lower initiative.  I'm going to focus on other armies in 8th though - most likely empire (although i'll use woc and skaven until my empire models are ready).

[richardbarby]

with all the talk of massive units in the game bring on the 15 strong blunderbusess one shot per model in the target unit 50 empire spears or high elf block of spears the smae size = red mist

[Big D]

Longbeard Rangers = 20 S5 throwing axes that can always S&S. win.

[Simon]

6 salamanders, 6 flaming templates per turn with -3 armor saves. Win.

[Simon]

slann
slann

skink priest on EOTG
saurus vet BSB

20 saurus warriors w/shields
20 saurus warriors w/shields
15 skinks
15 skinks
16 temple guards
6 kroxigors
3 terradons
3 terradons
3 salamanders
3 salamanders

[Big D]

Twin Slann?? You dirty b*stard Simon 

[Vaul]

even with two slaan, you will have between 2-12 power dice, usually 7 to share.  You roll a dice for every wizard you have at the start of the magic phase, and on a 6 you get an extra dice.  So gw have got rid of the exponential magical power system from last edition.  Also you have to keep the value of both slaans combined, below 25% of your army total.  They might not have a lot of gear!

I'm looking at a warriors of chaos list that is pretty much pure mark of khorne, except the wizards, and just plainly kitting out the lord and bsb with the new combat items/potions.  If they made it past your salamanders, it should be easy going in close combat with all those high strength attacks! 

[omegakai]

well, now it seems i don’t have to spend time convince people how to resolve the giant imitative  attack , while it says the same thing as 8th edition it says its it in a much straight forward way, Look out big multi profile things, your dead.