Equinox 2010 - Tournament Thread- updated list of players

[James.M]

Man, Wish I'd planned my flights a week later so I could head up to play before leaving the country..

@ Simon, I'm not sure what the sports marking is, but assuming its the usual tick box system, pretty much everyone should be getting full marks (I hope), or very close to it. This effectively means Sports is a non-issue in the final scores, other than providing a helpful reminder to play nicely. So I wouldn't worry too much about what the final percentage of sports scoring is.

Cheers
James

[nik_]

You only just read the final version? Well, you missed your chance to comment on the draft by a fair margin  You know that sports never has any effect on tournament placing. Effectively it's 120pts battle + comp, 20 pts painting, for an 85% hard scores, 15% soft scores mix, which is about what you asked for.

[Simon]

serously, there are 5 questions in sportmanship section, and EACH "yes" worth 2 points of the total, it weights equal to "2" battle points.

a simple 4/5 for sportmanship can easily bring a 12 - 8 WIN to a 10 - 10 DRAW

this 2 points is very critical, especially on the second day when all the top players' scores are very very close.

to avoid any disappointment or debate after the tournament I strongly suggest to increase the battle points weighting to 75 to 80% of the total score.

@ Simon, I'm not sure what the sports marking is, but assuming its the usual tick box system, pretty much everyone should be getting full marks (I hope), or very close to it. This effectively means Sports is a non-issue in the final scores, other than providing a helpful reminder to play nicely. So I wouldn't worry too much about what the final percentage of sports scoring is.

if this is the case, then I don't understand why sportsmanship should weight "30%" since everyone should be getting full marks or very close to it.
a simple 10% to 15% is good enough.

yea, i do agree with you, full sportsmanship mark is usually easy to obtain but not when a critical rule argument arises.

[pete dunn]

However if you look at Fluffycon the actual percentage that sports is was irrelevant i.e. range of 28-30 with all but 2 getting 30/30 (and in 90% of cases so was painting).

Fluffycon was largely Battle + comp.

Equinox is the same (according to Players Pack).

[Philfy]

Assuming, as you often point out Pete, that no chipmunking occurs...

[richardbarby]

why do you want to aviod a debate simon??

isnt that what all you guys do when your not gaming anyway

isnt the whole point about haveing a good time anyway most important rule in many rule books

[Simon]

However if you look at Fluffycon the actual percentage that sports is was irrelevant i.e. range of 28-30 with all but 2 getting 30/30 (and in 90% of cases so was painting).

Fluffycon was largely Battle + comp.

Equinox is the same (according to Players Pack).

they are not the same, equinox sportsmanship score worth more than twice of FluffyCon.

FluffyCon is almost 80% battle + comp while  equinox is 60%

FluffyCOn
Battle: 120 / 225 points
Composition: 60 / 225 points
Appearance: 15 / 225 points
Sportsmanship: 30 / 225 points

Battle: 53.4%
Comp : 26.6%
Appear: 6.6%
Sport 13.4%

Equniox
Battle 120 / 200 points
Sportsmanship: 60 / 200 points
Appearance: 20 / 200 points

Battle: 60%
Comp : 0%
Appear: 10%
Sport 30%

[Vaul]

So long as the TO is dilligent in following up with a player if he docks someone for sports, gets to the bottom of it and a reasonable case is made, there isn't anything wrong with the sports system.  As far as I know, people are only losing points on sports in very special and rare circumstances.

- Vaul's view

[James.M]

Simon, it doesn't matter what percentage overall it is. If everyone gets 28-30 for sports which is about the usual for tournaments in NZ (we do all seem to be good bastards after all )

Then the breakdown is basically( I think 25/30 is about the worst I can recall its usually only 28-29)

battle: 120/150
Pres: 20/150
Sports: 10/150

which is only about 5% for sports or something

And the sports chipmunk is pretty much a myth...can you actually think of someone getting torched in sports during the last year or two? I can't...

[wouster7]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your views on the high sports score in Equinox. My view was that very few things should happen in a tournament that can't be amicably resolved. By taking the latest tournament where 91% of people got maximum sports scores the weighting should be obsolete to your result at equinox. So if we look at Battle pts which are worth 60% and painting 10% then Battle pts will win your the tournament because it will be responsible for 85% of your final score.

For the first taste of ETC styled no comp tournaments the large sports score is also a friendly reminder that you should play nice. Any votes against a player for sports will be diligently investigated by your TO.

Phil.

[pete dunn]

so Simon

At FluffyCon virtually everybody got 30/30 Sports and 15/15 Painting so full marks - any variance in sports is negligble

At Equinox you get 60/60 Sports and 20/20 Painting

All that is left in both is Battle & Comp

Both competitions are totally Battle+ Comp - unless you don't paint your army or display inappropriate behaviours. This is the benefit of using checklist sports rather than the popularity contest of 0-5 score per game. A good TO would require explanation for any variance.

[Simon]

And the sports chipmunk is pretty much a myth...can you actually think of someone getting torched in sports during the last year or two? I can't...

well, I did. last year in FOB 2009. I got 28/30 for sports which effective brought me down from 5th place to 7th place. becuase Phil was 0.5 pt higher than me and the 5th place was 1.5 points higher than me.

and I know who marked me down, but I don't want to give name, it was a player that I had a rule argument with during a game, we rolled off at the end, but he loss and loss almost 600 points worth of stuff, which ended up got him pretty upset.

which I think is not fair for me.

Both competitions are totally Battle+ Comp - unless you don't paint your army or display inappropriate behaviours. This is the benefit of using checklist sports rather than the popularity contest of 0-5 score per game. A good TO would require explanation for any variance.

it is usually perfectly fine, but not until a critical rule argument arise as above, I do believe most of the players in the tournament are nice and friendly, but I also believe some problems do occur occasionally and not everyone is able to resolve problems smoothly without getting anyone upset.

[PaW]

Though hopefully lack of comp, people don't see sports as a way to comp people who take flith to the limits.

doubt it would happen. As it didn't happen at warpfire as far as im aware

[proximity]

I can't speak for other TO's - but I know that in any events I umpire, I investigate each and every sportsmanship mark that is docked, Phil is doing a lot of good work here and I don't think you will have anything to worry about.

[nik_]

full sportsmanship mark is usually easy to obtain but not when a critical rule argument arises.

This is probably the time when the players true sportsmanship shows through the most. Being able to resolve rules queries in a calm, reasoned and mutually beneficial way is essential to a good game of warhammer.

[Simon]

This is probably the time when the players true sportsmanship shows through the most. Being able to resolve rules queries in a calm, reasoned and mutually beneficial way is essential to a good game of warhammer.

I tried in FOB last year, we decided to roll off at the end, he loss and he got upset.

Personally I don't think I did anything wrong in my part, he accepted to roll off, he loss and he should accept the consequence.

I felt -2 pts to my sport because of that is totally unexpected and unfair.


but u just can't expect everyone to have the same level of sportsmanship as you do.

[nik_]

I tried in FOB last year, we decided to roll off at the end, he loss and he got upset.

Then that sounds like poor sportsmanship on his part, and I have sympathy for you.

[James.M]

Though hopefully lack of comp, people don't see sports as a way to comp people who take flith to the limits.

doubt it would happen. As it didn't happen at warpfire as far as im aware

Nope it definitely didn't happen at Warpfire (to me at least) I took Keeper + Banner of Despair + Fleshies + Flamers and got voted best sports  

Sorry Simon, maybe I used the wrong term, I was talking about someone giving a 0/5 for sports, thats an interwebs myth.

[Aa7]

hey Phil can you send me the latest players pack please.

Not sure I have the latest one in my email and after talking with you all on Sunday and then my partner too I am hopefully able to make it along to this event but want to make sure I am reading the correct info on it.

Unsure which army to take still but that can be sorted closer to March 5th eheheh

[nik_]

Players pack is here. Lists due by March 5th.

[wouster7]

More importantly Aaron as I said on Sunday, pay the $40 so you ensure you don't miss out.
Will be great to have you along mate.

[Josh]

I tried in FOB last year, we decided to roll off at the end, he loss and he got upset.

Then that sounds like poor sportsmanship on his part, and I have sympathy for you.

This is exactly the reason I think the 30% sports is too much also. It is the obvious intention that the weightiness of the score is more to serve as a warning than actual punishment, so 95% of players should get full sports. However one disagreement/poor opponent has the potential to really much up the standings at the end of the tournament. Umpires checking negative marks can only do so much as the player could just lie/exaggerated.
There is also the sports score issue with the 'buddy system'. I know a few examples of players that don't wish to knock a player's sports score for fear of receiving a negative mark in return, or even have an argument and agree not to knock each others sports because of the effect it will have on their overall score. In both cases the sports system fails.

That said... the PP is written and that's the way it's going to be played. All we can hope for is a great weekend with happy players and that the TO is onto anything dodgy (more stress for poor Phil).

[Simon]

This is exactly the reason I think the 30% sports is too much also. It is the obvious intention that the weightiness of the score is more to serve as a warning than actual punishment, so 95% of players should get full sports. However one disagreement/poor opponent has the potential to really much up the standings at the end of the tournament. Umpires checking negative marks can only do so much as the player could just lie/exaggerated.
There is also the sports score issue with the 'buddy system'. I know a few examples of players that don't wish to knock a player's sports score for fear of receiving a negative mark in return, or even have an argument and agree not to knock each others sports because of the effect it will have on their overall score. In both cases the sports system fails.

That said... the PP is written and that's the way it's going to be played. All we can hope for is a great weekend with happy players and that the TO is onto anything dodgy (more stress for poor Phil).

I don't see why the player pack can't be change, since the event is still 1 month away, and no one have submitted any army lists.

I already pointed out an perfect example of how sports system fails and obviously there is a problem. when encountered a problem, ppl should find ways to improve the system to make it better and not seat there, finger cross and "hope" for nothing happen.

if you think it brings more stress to Phil, then simple change the sportsmanship to 20% or something, then everything is resolved and he will be stress free.

I'm really struggling to see how a simple problem like that can't be change in the player pack, it is not like we need to change the date of the tournament or something.

[wouster7]

@Simon

The players pack is fine if you think you will not enjoy the tournament I have no problem offering your place to someone else.

[proximity]

I think Phil is just really trying to place emphasis on the fact that he would like to see people making an active effort to display appropriate behaviors. If you think you  can do this, then it should be a non issue. Historic evidence indicates that for nearly every single one of you, that's exactly the case. Only two people were pinged during all of last weekend for fantasy; lets not snowball this and create a nonexistent issue as if its happening in every other game.

[Vaul]

@Simon

The players pack is fine if you think you will not enjoy the tournament I have no problem offering your place to someone else.

That could have been more diplomatic.

At any rate I share simon's fear but not his case on this.  Whenever I have a rules argument with an opponent I always get that feeling in my gut that I should not stand up to him in any way shape or form otherwise he might dock me a point.  But at the end of the day it is often just a matter of making sure you are sitting down, speaking in a calm, clear tone of voice, and making sure both parties have the rules to check, and that the TO is politely invited over to voice an opinion or judgement.  In the case of a sight range or distance guess/measurement, a 4+ is almost always a fair solution when grown-ups are playing.

If it is your opponent that is being unreasonable, and if YOU get docked and not him, this is when you would ask the TO to decide.  I'm sure that if simon had some asshole dock him a point, and talked to the TO after equinox about the circumstances under which the point was docked, the TO could approach the offending 'docker' and see if there was a possibility of revising the dockage.

I just like saying the word dock.

p.s me and simon had a silly and trivial rules argument in our game at fluffycon... I still voted him best sports

[Simon]

@Simon

The players pack is fine if you think you will not enjoy the tournament I have no problem offering your place to someone else.

gee, thanks a lot, Phil. U sure got my best Umpire vote of the year already.   

so just incase I misunderstood you, are you telling me to shut up or don't play??

If that is the case, I will shut up, Mr TO, or it is Umpire?? or player pack designer?? or everything??

and I thought some members of cityguard and nik were also part of the organizing team, but it sounds like the tournament now "belongs" to you and noone else in your "team" can make any decisions but the Mr TO.

I thought this thread is open for discussion and ideas, but from what I heard from you, it obviously doesn't sound like it.

if this is the case, I will shut up and good luck to you running the tournament then, Mr. TO.

 

[wouster7]

I am not sure why we're discussing this on an open forum now. But I think Simon you have misunderstood the premise of this thread and also the timing of the thread. If you haven't taken the time to read through the months of preparation a team of us spent to organise and design this tournament then I can't help you. To jump to conclusions as you did and am still doing won't win you the argument.
I will reiterate what has been done through from the start of the planning stages. A committee was formed to draught the backbones of the tournament and design a pack. The pack was open to the forum so changes could be made and a period of 2months at least was given for criticism and changes. That time frame for input and changes finished 5-6weeks ago. If you want to talk about your concerns you didn't pick the right way or forum to discuss it. All your other questions are obsolete I'm sure you can answer them yourself.

[Simon]

I am not sure why we're discussing this on an open forum now. But I think Simon you have misunderstood the premise of this thread and also the timing of the thread. If you haven't taken the time to read through the months of preparation a team of us spent to organise and design this tournament then I can't help you. To jump to conclusions as you did and am still doing won't win you the argument.

As you have pointed out, it is an open forum and it is free for discussion. In regards to your comments above, I think as a TO, you should read the entire post before posting replies to queries in regards to your tournament.
 
I raised a question (not an argument) in regard to the impact of the massive weighting of the sportsmanship score. I respect the effort and time the cityguard's team been putting into the player pack, but I am simply asking a question "why sportsmanship worth such a big portion of the overall result?" compare to any other tournaments in NZ in the past 4 years.

But from the posts above, I simply could not find an answer.

Even more shockingly, one of the player pack “designer” himself pointed out 2 cases on how heavy weighting in sportsmanship will have huge impact on the overall score.

And his response to that is “finger cross, and hope everything runs smoothly.”

I just want to point out, I am not trying to win an argument and get the committee to change the player pack to the way I like it, but I just want to understand the “idea” and “reason” behind the 30% sportsmanship score and I would like to hear from the designer(s) of the player pack.

If 30% sportsmanship is what the designers really want, and they really think it is necessary and back up with a good reason then it is perfectly acceptable to me, but if it is a mistake or misunderstood, then I believe there is still time to change it, better than crossing fingers and hope for the best.

And to your response above, if you are not part of the player pack design team, you can simply ignore my question, as it is totally mind of your own business. But if you are part of the player pack designing team, I would love to hear your thought in regards to the weighting of the sportsmanship score.

I am raising a point in good faith, and wanting to point out the problem before the tournament to hopefully make it better, but I found your responses, as a TO is unexpected and uncalled for.

At any event, it is your tournament and you can run it the way you like it. This will be most fine from my point of view.

If you want to talk about your concerns you didn't pick the right way or forum to discuss it.

if this is not the right place to ask question in regards to the tournament, can you tell where to ask?

[Glenn Patel]

I personally didn't realise it was such a huge percentage until I saw this thread. I am now regretting entering.

I am also considering looking for every possible excuse to mark people down, because I am sick beyond measure of getting last in sports. (if I play someone and suspect they may mark me down on sports, question 5 is now automatically "no I do not ever want to play them again" - and that is because it ruins my day afterwards to see it.)

Quite seriously, I'd rather deal with rules-lawyering, or dodgy measuring, or hell, outright cheating. Losing a game is one thing. Calling me a bad sport? Something else entirely.

The 20-0 losses? Water off a duck's back. The 3/5 for sports? Not so much.