Vamps - 5/01/2010

[Chris]

Lord is actually a Lv3, points are spent on it but I forgot to add it into the list. He has Summon Ghouls because 4+ is a little long odds for me to be wasting dice on it when I don't NEED the raise and it gives me something to pump the PD into on the first turn or two or when Danse isn't going to make as much of an impoct as more bodies.

Lycini is already on the Ghoulkin Vamp, Curiass is on the Flying Book Vamp so he can have a save of some sort (can't fit the -2 Armour) when he cops a couple of shots (eventually), the book is 12" range so I don't see him having tremendous trouble getting it off and staying nominally safe.

To grab the general a sword thats not biting I need to drop down to 5DD 1Scroll and IMLE that doesn't cut it. I don't intend to be throwing the lord into big combats but The blade is just there for magical attacks and to waste the 5pts.

I'm just not seeing the Corpse cart being anything but a throw in, the Bats I didn't go with because I already have my 3 flyers restriction hit.

Ghosts and Wights are out of theme IMO because Ghouls and this list in particular is supposed to be scavangers.

[Simon]

drop 25 zombies to 20 zombies each,

with the extra points, add another fell bat.

2 units of 3 fell bats are better than 1 big unit.

I would drop 1 summon ghouls and take summon creatures of the night.

[Chris]

drop 25 zombies to 20 zombies each,

Why? I already have spare points I'm struggling to use without a 40mm based monster unit to throw them at. I'm actually considering caving to daves spirit hosts suggestion and making some hulked out ghouls.

with the extra points, add another fell bat.

2 units of 3 fell bats are better than 1 big unit.

Assuming the 4th Vamp is a Flyer (which I'm fond of) then I'll be hitting my quota (3) of Flyers for Equinox comp already.

I would drop 1 summon ghouls and take summon creatures of the night.

The Summon Powers are 1PD each duplicates don't stack so I'm not fond of wasting one of my PD leaving me with 6 to use.

[Simon]

Why? I already have spare points I'm struggling to use without a 40mm based monster unit to throw them at. I'm actually considering caving to daves spirit hosts suggestion and making some hulked out ghouls.

then take 3 units of 20 zombies, able to take lots of cheap small fear causing units is what make VC so damn dirty.

spirit hosts are great but then it is not "Strigoi" theme

Assuming the 4th Vamp is a Flyer (which I'm fond of) then I'll be hitting my quota (3) of Flyers for Equinox comp already.

2 units of bats + a flying vamp is better, IMO.

The Summon Powers are 1PD each duplicates don't stack so I'm not fond of wasting one of my PD leaving me with 6 to use.

Jeff Traish uses uses summon ghoul and summon creatures of the night with great result and he runs a very similiar list like yours.

For your fourth char, I would recommend adding a necromancer with VHD and Black Periapt over another vamp any day

1. Cheap extra PD + DD.
2. Guarantee VHD

Vampire Lord (465 pts)
General; Vampire; Level 3 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead; Nightmare
      Biting Blade, Nightshroud, The Carstein Ring, Red Fury, Summon Ghouls, Infinite Hatred
Vampire (165 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Lance; Undead; Nightmare
      Dispel Scroll, Summon Creatures of the Night, Dread Knight (Barding)
Vampire (195 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Lance; Undead; Nightmare
      Sword of Battle, Enchanted Shield, Black Periapt, Dread Knight (Barding), Infinite Hatred
Wight King (175 pts)
Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer; Undead; Skeletal Steed
      Walach's Bloody Hauberk
12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast
12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast
12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast
Corpse Cart (100 pts)
Unholy Lodestone
5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead
5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead
3 Spirit Host (195 pts)
Ethereal; Undead
18 Grave Guard (265 pts)
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead; Seneschal
      War Banner
3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead
3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead
Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

[Chris]

then take 3 units of 20 zombies, able to take lots of cheap small fear causing units is what make VC so damn dirty.

What I see the Zombies as being is a nice big roadblock that can soak a charge and the crumble and still be there to hold the chargers up. At 20 they can conceivably be crumbled but 25 are only 20pts more and they're not likely to be going anywhere. I could convert them to Ghouls but they'd be much more expensive for doing the same job because small units of ghouls evaporate easily.

spirit hosts are great but then it is not "Strigoi" theme

There aren't enough choices left in the book barring just more ghouls to fill out the list without breaking theme a little bit. Regardless Strigoi is perhaps a little too much baggage, Savage and Degenerate is what I'm going for. I think Hosts are the closest to what I need that slides under the hard caps while not looking like a compromise to get in something really effective i.e. Wraiths.

2 units of bats + a flying vamp is better, IMO.

Jeff Traish uses uses summon ghoul and summon creatures of the night with great result and he runs a very similiar list like yours.

I don't see how cutting the speed off one of my vamps to split my bat unit down really helps unless I'm taking Summon Creatures (which splits my casting).

I don't really see the resemblance in the Quoted list to mine bar a core of Ghouls, I also don't expect Jeff Traish to play like me or me like Jeff Traish. It occurs to me that Playstyle as a consideration is very underdeveloped concept in the WFB community. For instance I would from my limited exposure class Traish as a very clinical player favouring conservative play and minimising losses where I know I play the first couple of turns willy nilly posturing (why I usually overload on guns) and roll the freight train on turn 3. Thus I need the heavy one dice raising to keep my units up early and the flying heavy hitters to smash in late game. VC probably isn't the best army for me I know but its what I've got.

For your fourth char, I would recommend adding a necromancer with VHD and Black Periapt over another vamp any day

1. Cheap extra PD + DD.
2. Guarantee VHD

I already have 3 shots at VHD guaranteed so I'm not sure a 4th one is really neccessary, a Necromancer is also not a Vamp for marching which means I can't have wing units without comitting the Castervamp (who then has less screening units and stretches his spell range) or the Lycini Vamp who isn't as flexible without 20" fly.

I'm open to the Necro idea but it also isn't a very savage VC theme option. Depending on how the Equinox pack turns out I might have to drop the 4th slot to keep ghoulkin (which I'm not sure is a good idea) anyway.

My options really boil down (if Equinox pack changes) to Necro, Flying Killy Guy or Vamp BSB. The BSB isn't as critical to Vamps but it would be nice seeing as there are no flags and very little SCR in the army otherwise.

[Simon]

What I see the Zombies as being is a nice big roadblock that can soak a charge and the crumble and still be there to hold the chargers up. At 20 they can conceivably be crumbled but 25 are only 20pts more and they're not likely to be going anywhere. I could convert them to Ghouls but they'd be much more expensive for doing the same job because small units of ghouls evaporate easily.

it is totally up to you, for me 20 zombies are more than enough, I would spend the extra 20 pts on another fell bat, but if u like 25, then take 25. I think it is a waste of points.

There aren't enough choices left in the book barring just more ghouls to fill out the list without breaking theme a little bit. Regardless Strigoi is perhaps a little too much baggage, Savage and Degenerate is what I'm going for. I think Hosts are the closest to what I need that slides under the hard caps while not looking like a compromise to get in something really effective i.e. Wraiths.

fair enough.

I don't see how cutting the speed off one of my vamps to split my bat unit down really helps unless I'm taking Summon Creatures (which splits my casting).

I don't really see the resemblance in the Quoted list to mine bar a core of Ghouls, I also don't expect Jeff Traish to play like me or me like Jeff Traish. It occurs to me that Playstyle as a consideration is very underdeveloped concept in the WFB community. For instance I would from my limited exposure class Traish as a very clinical player favouring conservative play and minimising losses where I know I play the first couple of turns willy nilly posturing (why I usually overload on guns) and roll the freight train on turn 3. Thus I need the heavy one dice raising to keep my units up early and the flying heavy hitters to smash in late game. VC probably isn't the best army for me I know but its what I've got.

2 units of bat + a flying vamp and 2 mounted vamps are better.

I didn't ask you to "copy" his playing style or his list. there is a reason why he is doing so great in OZ tournament. gaming experence is one, army list is another.

2 small units of bats are a lot more useful then 1 big unit IMO, but again it is totally up to you,  if your "playing style" prefers 1 big unit then just take 1.


but overall, your vamp list looks a bit too weak for Equinox. Unless you have superior gaming skill or some sort of secret plans, i'm struggling to see how you can come up with any amazing tactic with your list.

the magic phase looks too predictable, and your unit choices limit what you can do with your army. if you up against an army that can hit harder then your ghouls, you r pretty much stuffed. (eg Lizardmen)

[Chris]

Jeff Traish is Jeff Traish. He'd need a lobotomy not to do well.

Its not a question of whether two is better, its a question of whether the two units is worth clipping the wings off the 3rd herovamp (which is entirely dependant on whether Equinox lets me have 4 Heros)

[Simon]

Its not a question of whether two is better, its a question of whether the two units is worth clipping the wings off the 3rd herovamp (which is entirely dependant on whether Equinox lets me have 4 Heros)

IMO, yes. I don't see why u need 2 flying vamps. if u don't want to take summon creatures of the night, I recommend adding another unit of 5 fell bats.

[Chris]

Because otherwise the Vampires, the real hittyness in the list are tied down too much and it requires a turn of forethought to get them where they need to be. Flying Vampires are unpredictable and allow me to play with options. I just don't see the super awesome in Summon Creatures.

I feel like a sellout but what do peoples think of this?

Vampire Lord (455 pts)
Vampire; General; Nightmare; Sheld; Lance; Extra Level
      Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll, Biting Blade
      Dread Knight, Forbidden Lore, Summon Ghouls, Infinite Hatred

Vampire (200 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead;
      Infinite Hatred, Summon Ghouls
      Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Battle, Talisman of the Lycini

Vampire (195 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead
      Flying Horror, Summon Ghouls,
      Book of Arkahn, Cadaverous Curiass

20 Zombies (80 pts)
Causes Fear; Undead; The Newly Dead, Shambling Horde

20 Zombies (80 pts)
Causes Fear; Undead; The Newly Dead, Shambling Horde

18 Crypt Ghouls (152 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

5 Dire Wolves (40pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead;

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

3 Spirit Hosts (195pts)
Undead; Ethereal

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

3 Cairn Wraiths (175 pts)
Terror; Undead; Great Weapons; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Banshee

Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

[Simon]

looks quite good too me.

[Philfy]

Because otherwise the Vampires, the real hittyness in the list are tied down too much and it requires a turn of forethought to get them where they need to be. Flying Vampires are unpredictable and allow me to play with options. I just don't see the super awesome in Summon Creatures.

I feel like a sellout but what do peoples think of this?

Looks like fun - you up for a game on Sunday @ club then?

[Chris]

Unfortunately I've already got a game organised with Josh, but thanks for the offer.

[PaW]

Personally i would have one vampire with ghoulkin.
so your flying vamp can be used to its full effectiveness, which is charging turn one to take out a warmachine, Use him very bully like. If your oppenent notices it, may force a bit of less than optimal deployment, or you are likely to get a warmachine quickly.
(this may force you to rework the magic items a little bit but i think its worth it. )


my 2c

[Josh]

Umm... 8" advance move + 20" fly = 28". Deployment 24" apart... are you suggesting some players deploy their warmachines 4" from the deployment line?   The only time I would do that is a bolt thrower on the flank, or warmachines in a wood.

Either way, I agree with Peter. Ghoul-rush is great, but may give you comp issues (except at Equinox!). I like the list, but have a thought for you.

What is the direction of this army? There is not enough magic to overwhelm people with VDM and raise, and there is no hitting power aside from the rather fragile rares. I guess you hope to pin units in place and then CR them to death with flank charges, etc. I'd suggest dropping the Spirit Hosts for a small unit of Black Knights or something. You need more hitting power IMO.

[PaW]

are you suggesting some players deploy their warmachines 4" from the deployment line?

All the time?
If there is a hill that is up the front of the deployment zone people often deploy on the hill. Its still possible, like i said it can deny somebody the use of the hill thus not making optimal use of there deployment. As for placing your warmachines forward or back, depends on the army compisition you are playing with/ against and your playstile. For example High elf bolt throwers are sometimes really nice to deploy that little bit extra forward because you are not -1 hit if they move, which means an extra hit.

There are alot of other uses for ghoulkin which i didnt bother to mention. and remember you don't have to use it, even though you have it.

Its intresting you say that it doesn't have the hitting power, and you may be right, But Pete Dunn's list while different, also didn't have any black knights or the like. Personally i find games very difficult without heavy cavalry but thats me.

[Chris]

What is the direction of this army? There is not enough magic to overwhelm people with VDM and raise, and there is no hitting power aside from the rather fragile rares. I guess you hope to pin units in place and then CR them to death with flank charges, etc. I'd suggest dropping the Spirit Hosts for a small unit of Black Knights or something. You need more hitting power IMO.

I had Ghoulkin in all the way through to the latest incarnation but all it seems to do for me is create traffic jams and rocket the Ghouls ahead of the bulletcatcher units.

I'm restricted to 9PD by Equinox so there is all the magic I'm allowed to have already in the list. The loose plan is to play straight up, raise and trade like usual until I see something hanging in the wind for the flexible flying and killy units to go grab.

[Simon]

I'm restricted to 9PD by Equinox so there is all the magic I'm allowed to have already in the list. The loose plan is to play straight up, raise and trade like usual until I see something hanging in the wind for the flexible flying and killy units to go grab.

this is my thought on your chars choices, just my own opinion,

I think spending 35 points for Forbidden lore on a lvl 3 (who can only use 5 PDs) seem like a waste.
Guarantee VHD is probably why u want forbidden lore, since u spent so many pts to get it, u might as well maximize its effectiveness. From my experience, the most effective way to get VHD off is to throw 3 PDs.

With 5 PDs on your level 3, u can probably guarantee to get it off once and 50% chance to get it off twice per turn, which I think is not good enough on the turn when u need it the most.

Secondly, being level 3 also restricts the max PDs u can use, I found it quite hard to get some of the high level spells in the VC lore off.

So i suggest make him a level 4, or give one of your level 1 Vamp Black Periapt. it really helps a lot.

Thirdly, I really don't see the reason why u want summon ghouls on your 2 level 1s, seem like a waste of point. since your lord has forbidden lore and summon ghouls, u can just let him do all the magic work. I suggest giving one of your vamp Black Periapt.

Because otherwise the Vampires, the real hittyness in the list are tied down too much and it requires a turn of forethought to get them where they need to be. Flying Vampires are unpredictable and allow me to play with options. I just don't see the super awesome in Summon Creatures.

Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead;
      Infinite Hatred, Summon Ghouls
      Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Battle, Talisman of the Lycini

I don't see the super awesome  about this char and why u want to keep it so bad. I also don't understand why u need 2 high movement vamps. u can make a death knight vamp with 25 points, and u get 2+ save and movement 8 for a fraction of the points?
 

I just don't see the super awesome in Summon Creatures.

Give you more options in the magic phase, since your lord already has summon ghouls, giving your 2 level 1s summon ghouls seem excessively waste of points.

By giving one of your level 1 summon creatures of the night, u have the option to raise more bats or wolves 3 times per turn or 4 times if u have Black periapt other than just ghouls.

but again it is my personal opinion, your playing style might not suits.

[Doug]

There is not enough magic to overwhelm people with VDM and raise

You don't need to overwhelm people with VDM and raise.  Technically, all you need is to get a key VDM off once, or raise so that one key combat takes one combat phase longer than the enemy would like.  Anything beyond that isnt required to make the army work, it is just gravy.  I'm afraid it just takes a little more effort.

The list would enjoy something a bit more hitty than what the wraiths and vampires currently provide though