Vamps - 5/01/2010

[Chris]

Hi there boys and girls.

In my ongoing quest to finish assembling a WFB army I've decided to shelf the brettonian idea (well they're already there, but you get the drift) and pull the Vamps back on now that everyone has stopped (at least a bit) comp-hobbling them twice. I've got the initial makings of an army but where I struggle is with fleshing the list out, so I come to you with advice for making a semi-decent vamp list.

The idea is to have the +3CR Vamp in the block of Skellies and make them my anvil of +8CR while the Lord Rolls up and repositions first turn in a unit of ghouls (screening ghouls there for if theres a lot of guns in the opposition. As is probably apparent the rest of the list is an afterthought.

Vampire Lord (410 pts)
Vampire; General; Nightmare
      Sword of Might, Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Dispel Scroll, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin

Vampire (200 pts)*
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Lance; Sheild; Undead; Nightmare
      Dread Knight (Barding), Walking Death, BSB, Warbanner

Wight King (120 pts)
Barding; Shield; Undead; Skeletal Steed
      Sword of Kings

 Necromancer (170 pts)
Undead; Van Hels Danse Macabre; Rides Corpse Cart
      Dispel Scroll, Black Periapt

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

20 Skeleton Warriors (245 pts)*
Causes Fear; Light Armour; Sheild; Hand Weapon; Undead; Full Command
      Banner of the Dead Legion

Corpse Cart (100 pts)
Balefire

7 Dire Wolves (66pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead; Doomwolf

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

6 Black Knights (237 pts)
Undead; Wight Blade; Insubstatial Steeds; Standard; Musician
      Banner of the Barrows

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

3 Cairn Wraiths (150 pts)
Terror; Undead; Great Weapons; Ethereal; Skirmishers;
 
Total: 2241

What am I doing wrong here?

[Simon]

looks pretty good,

i would drop one of the Corpse Cart

and take few more units of dire wolves.

they are too awesome not to take.

Corpse Cart (100 pts)
Balefire

7 Dire Wolves (66pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead; Doomwolf

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

to

5 Dire wolves (40 pts)

5 Dire wolves (40 pts)

5 Dire wolves (40 pts)

5 Dire wolves (40 pts)

5 Dire wolves (40 pts)

your black knights not barded??

also, if u r not planning to take a banshee, then might as well drop the Cairn Wraiths

[Josh]

Umm... Summon Ghouls on the vampires?

I think you'd be better off having the BSB on the Wight King (harder to kill, etc, etc) and turn the second vamp into a basic caster. Zombies man...

And yes you don't need the second corpse cart.

[Chris]

On Wolves: The 7 Wolves is the Bloodthirster Stopper (In my head that is) but I'm just confused as to what a zillion more units of Dogs are going to do for me.

On Wraiths: What does a Banshee do for me? I put the wraiths in to fill points that wouldn't be a zillion more boring core troops.

On Ghouls: I left Summon ghouls off deliberately as a concession to not getting comp f*cked. But I can get away with it? what about if I'm taking more ghouls with freed up points?

On Zombies: Hate them, boring.

On Corpse Cart: What should I replace it with? The second one was again, filler because I can't have more characters or interesting things like Varghulfs.

On BSB: BSB was Vamp because he is +3 not +2, What makes the wight king harder to kill? I also can't take more magic because I'm at 9PD already.

Educate me, what am I missing?

[Philfy]

On Wolves: The 7 Wolves is the Bloodthirster Stopper (In my head that is) but I'm just confused as to what a zillion more units of Dogs are going to do for me.

  Provide speedbumps  err   I mean diverters/blockers as well as rank killers (when hitting opponent in flank obviously)

On Wraiths: What does a Banshee do for me? I put the wraiths in to fill points that wouldn't be a zillion more boring core troops.

YOu mean other than killing things at range?  Which IIRC VC's aren't exactly king at 

On Zombies: Hate them, boring.

  Ditto - but for the points cost...  well worth having at least one tar pit to hold a flank.

On BSB: BSB was Vamp because he is +3 not +2, What makes the wight king harder to kill? I also can't take more magic because I'm at 9PD already.

  Extra point of toughness makes a whole world of difference - more so than extra AS does.

[Simon]

On Wolves: The 7 Wolves is the Bloodthirster Stopper

how?

Provide speedbumps  err   I mean diverters/blockers as well as rank killers (when hitting opponent in flank obviously)

u can piss ppl off with them too.

Extra point of toughness makes a whole world of difference - more so than extra AS does.

extra wound too.

[Antony]

Isn't a nightmare a flying monster? If so it means your boss can't join units  

The +3 CR BSB is filthy. Having a wight BSB is more survivable, and doesn't exclude the +1 CR power on the vamp. Should you want to add the BSB to the knights being able to move the wholle knight unit through terrain is super cool if the situation arises.

A bansee is really good at getting rid of those annoying throw away units that will mess up your knights and other charges. The only downside to a bansee in a small unit of wraiths is that she can be challanged and chopped up by a dragon lord giving a large CR combat win.

I think you have gone too far to be worried about subjective comp. If you are concerned about subjective comp I think you need to drop a few toys. Not having Summon Ghouls won't cut it as a "comp concession".


@ Simon
Challange = max +6 CR so with one kill and win by 6 you. Your bloodthirster can kill 7 wolves in a challenge. If there is one left they can be re raised, or at least stay there and stop the charge.

[Simon]

Isn't a nightmare a flying monster? If so it means your boss can't join units 

nightmare doesn't fly, hellsteed does.

[Chris]

Good Points

+3CR vs Survivability: I look at it and see the Wight king loosing the 5+ killing blow I took him for and what killy he has left is nominally tied to the Knights which is not where I want the BSB, in the CR Pit, sure the pit can be avoided but thats ~500pts that regenerates light shooting damage itself that's not getting killed. You can have the Vamp power in addition to the Wight BSB but thats putting two of my characters in there, not where I want a non combat Vamp to be and combat Vamps I'd think would be in a unit I'll be rushing with.

Dogs: I can see 3 units being useful in the diverter manner yes but 4+ just looks like it'll get in the way of my own army to me, even planning a deployment on table the 4th+ unit is always sitting somewhere miles out with no real purpose. Educate me?

Comp: I don't have any toys? If I biff the wraiths because I'm not hot on them anyway, drop a corpse cart and swap the Wight King for a Castervamp and +1 Dogs, +1 Zombies, Ghouls to fill I don't see anything really having changed bar shifting power from the knights to the goul blocks.

[Philfy]

@ Simon
Challange = max +6 CR so with one kill and win by 6 you. Your bloodthirster can kill 7 wolves in a challenge. If there is one left they can be re raised, or at least stay there and stop the charge.

So the BSB and the Vamp are both in a unit of wolves?  "thirster wouldn't go into them frontally.  Otherwise 7 wolves is nothing more than a "thirster speedbump...  likely even if they have WS7 from the hat...  (if the 'thirster rolls slightly above average).  Or you happen to roll snake-eyes for your breaktest.

[Chris]

So the BSB and the Vamp are both in a unit of wolves?  "thirster wouldn't go into them frontally.  Otherwise 7 wolves is nothing more than a "thirster speedbump...  likely even if they have WS7 from the hat...  (if the 'thirster rolls slightly above average).  Or you happen to roll snake-eyes for your breaktest.

They're 26pts more expensive than a normal Dog unit and against anything big like a bloodthirster they can Fast cav up, sit in front of the Thirster blocking its charge for that turn but unlike 5 dogs you can challenge, get murdered, end up with 5CR from the challenge and outnumber for 6CR opposing you which is exactly enough to crumble the dogs. If the Thirster gets 4 kills then you're sitting pretty and in addition to the normal diverting you've just held the thirster in place instead of overrunning.

Thats the theory anyway.

[Antony]

No, this is how it works

7 dogs, one is a champ.

BT charges
Dogs challenge
BT chops up champ for 1 W and +5 overkill for +6CR. If the dogs have outnumber the BT wins by 5 and 5 dogs pop.
The last dog can be raised back to full strength or not. In any case Mr T is stuck there to be charged by +8CR unit of doom next turn.

Have I got that right Chris?

[Chris]

More or less yes, I forgot Outnumber is before Crumble (how I did that I don't know).

Nice to know I'm not going insane. Either way BT does no meaningful killing for a turn.

[Philfy]

like a bloodthirster they can Fast cav up, sit in front of the Thirster blocking its charge for that turn

Small problem with that...  'thirster is a flying large beastie...  so can see (and step) over the top of the doggies.  As can any other large flying beastie.  Would work against a Kipper though.

[Simon]

how?

Challange = max +6 CR so with one kill and win by 6 you. Your bloodthirster can kill 7 wolves in a challenge. If there is one left they can be re raised, or at least stay there and stop the charge.

Small problem with that...  'thirster is a flying large beastie...  so can see (and step) over the top of the doggies.  As can any other large flying beastie.  Would work against a Kipper though.

what I mean is "how" are you going to let a bloodthrister charges into you or block a bloodthrister with your wolves when it is a flying large target.

I understand how u want to challenge the bloodthrister and hold with 1 wolf, but it will only work if the bloodthrister charges into your dire wolves.

[wouster7]

How do you get a flying large target to charge you? Fast cav and diverters just won't work but hey I'm still learning so learn me. Unit of dogs would need a 'Siren howl'.

@Chris

Just a Q since you won't field Brets cos you'll have huge amounts to paint and horses are crapee to paint. What about the huge amounts of Skellie, Zombie and ghoulie blocks you're gonna have to put together for a VC army?

[Fujin]

The whole Dire Wolves vs Bloodthirster is interesting theoryhammer for sure. Might not be a bad idea to get them in there to tackle anything big (whether it's Bloodthirster or not).

Chris,

Great to see you are back into the Vampires. Hopefully all the cheese you take will distract people from my own list  

Here is some commentary:

Vampire Lord (410 pts)
Vampire; General; Nightmare
      Sword of Might, Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Dispel Scroll, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin

Vampire (200 pts)*
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Lance; Sheild; Undead; Nightmare
      Dread Knight (Barding), Walking Death, BSB, Warbanner

Wight King (120 pts)
Barding; Shield; Undead; Skeletal Steed
      Sword of Kings

 Necromancer (170 pts)
Undead; Van Hels Danse Macabre; Rides Corpse Cart
      Dispel Scroll, Black Periapt

The Lord looks like fun. Possibly 8PD and a bound, 6-7DD and 2 scrolls. That's a pretty tight phase right there.

I don't like the BSB+Warbanner+Walking Death combo but only because it puts your eggs in one basket. If you put the Warbanner on the Skellies (where he's probably going to go anyway) then you are still free to move him to a Ghoul unit to provide some more serious opposition if required. Having him locked down in one unit is a big trap - that combat res is exceedingly localised. On the other hand if you could find some points to give him Inf Hatred then he could just about roll a unit by himself on the charge (2-3 str 7 wounds +3CR for the banner/walking death... he looks good for combat res of 5 by himself.

Your other option is to charge him out of a unit. Not many people can cope with the surprise of +3 combat res suddenly being added to a combat they thought they had a chance of winning (and that's before he skewers anyone on the lance).

Personal preference though is to spread the love and give yourself options in many parts of the line so that he's not dragging all the combat res around wherever he goes.

Losing the Warbanner means you could also get some magical weapony goodness (Balefire Spike) in there. Or the Book of Arkhan.

I don't think maxing out the character slots is a necessity either but dropping the Necro would likely force you to drop the Wight King for another Vampire which in turn would change the setup of the whole army pretty drastically. Circa 900pts in characters just doesn't look that attractive to me.

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

20 Skeleton Warriors (245 pts)*
Causes Fear; Light Armour; Sheild; Hand Weapon; Undead; Full Command
      Banner of the Dead Legion

Corpse Cart (100 pts)
Balefire

7 Dire Wolves (66pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead; Doomwolf

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

One more unit of 5 Wolves would be very helpful. I run three (5 strong) and have found I generally keep a unit in reserve (18" movement is not to be underestimated) to redirect when required. They are incredibly useful and fulfil a role that the Bats simply cannot. And of course you cannot rely on getting a Raise Dead off in the magic phase if both players know a redirecting unit will change the game at that point. Would be looking to up the size of the Ghoul units or (as has been suggested and if you want to make the army much harder) put in Raise Ghouls. Or do both... 12 strong is just asking for first turn bolt thrower/magic missile death.

6 Black Knights (237 pts)
Undead; Wight Blade; Insubstatial Steeds; Standard; Musician
      Banner of the Barrows

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

Looks good. The Bats can be disappointing (and a bit useless against some opponents) - very fragile. The Knights are great and with the King are a solid hammer unit. I'd be dropping a unit of Bats for the thrid unit of Wolves.

Have you consider putting the Strigoi Banner on the BSB instead? Suddely the Wights are hitting on awesome, rerolling misses. Or the Ghouls are rerolling misses (and scoring more Poison hits). Another great and very flexible option I feel.

Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

3 Cairn Wraiths (150 pts)
Terror; Undead; Great Weapons; Ethereal; Skirmishers;

I was running this Rare setup but have since dropped the Vargulf for comp reasons (two Terror-causers). I have a Vampire on foot motivating the flank to march (which to me is a big part of the Varghulfs role). The 3 Wraiths would be much better if you could rely on their attacks hitting home (by getting the Helm in there for example - this is what I'm doing and it's working pretty well - or knowing you've got a good shot at a Van Hel's being cast into combat). I don't think it's necessary at all to take a Banshee. The Wraiths as they are are a fantastic utility unit taking care of Eagles, Fast Cav, Skirmishers... and they are your rough terrain option. Even a small unit is a considerable threat (as long as you keep them safe from magic missiles - your defense suggests this won't be a major issue).

Having a Banshee would be very nice (again, not a necessity) but 2 Wraiths + Banshee is forced to operate VERY differently to 3 Wraiths without a Banshee. If you take a Banshee you'd want at least 4 Wraiths + Banshee in the unit and then you've got a Wraith-hammer AND a Vargulf. Nasty.
 
Total: 2241[/quote]

What am I doing wrong here?

I reckon you're off to a great start. Painting up a bunch of Skeletons and Ghouls will be benefical at some point in your army construction. You'll want Knights anyway and probably the Rare choices too.

Nothing at this point suggests painting any of this stuff will be a waste of time.


@Phil - mind control powers. Just hypnotise the Bloodthirster - piece of cake. I think it's a reasonable choice for tying up a big nasty and with the 18" charge an unwary player could get caught out. How about the fact that it stops the 'Thirster moving to within charge range of the Wolves? Having the big nasty operate under your terms sounds like a pretty decent back-up option.

[Doug]

I understand how u want to challenge the bloodthrister and hold with 1 wolf, but it will only work if the bloodthrister charges into your dire wolves.

Just charge the bloodthirster with your wolves. 

That one surviving wolf still in combat stops the bloodthirster from moving in his own turn.  Same net result: you've delayed the big guy and potentially forced an issue next turn to boot.

[Philfy]

The whole Dire Wolves vs Bloodthirster is interesting theoryhammer for sure. Might not be a bad idea to get them in there to tackle anything big (whether it's Bloodthirster or not).

...

@Phil - mind control powers. Just hypnotise the Bloodthirster - piece of cake. I think it's a reasonable choice for tying up a big nasty and with the 18" charge an unwary player could get caught out. How about the fact that it stops the 'Thirster moving to within charge range of the Wolves? Having the big nasty operate under your terms sounds like a pretty decent back-up option.

Its effectively the re-raising champ trick that TK's have been doing for some time.  Its effective.  Works better with a ranked unit of course as you have a chance of winning combat and running down the gribbly.   It comes down to whether or not you are using champs in unit like that...  there is the odd occasion when having an "unable to refuse challenge" model in a unit is a disadvantage.

Most lists of VC's I've been toying with have 3-4 units of wolves in..  just can't go past that maneuvrability .

No doubt I'll get caught out by the trick with my BT at some stage in the future

[Mirage.]

Yea its basically what Doug said

Basically for those unit of 7 dogs with doomwolf, the opponent wont be expecting you to be charging, its just not something you really look out for, but basically if he's within 18" you charge and challenge, because either way hes gonna be stuck there next turn

But if he's outside 18" but inside 26" the you do the Vanhel's Dance on them to get them into the combat. (of course this will not work if your opponent is wise and can see this coming unless you IF or get lucky)

[Chris]

Just a Q since you won't field Brets cos you'll have huge amounts to paint and horses are crapee to paint. What about the huge amounts of Skellie, Zombie and ghoulie blocks you're gonna have to put together for a VC army?

I don't mind painting Infantry as much as cav ironically, I just hate painting horses. I'd forgotten how much and then I painted a Brettonian...

Its getting the army assembled thats the trick, once its playing games the painting will take care of itself.

Just charge the bloodthirster with your wolves. 

That one surviving wolf still in combat stops the bloodthirster from moving in his own turn.  Same net result: you've delayed the big guy and potentially forced an issue next turn to boot.

I was not aware you could declare a charge over models but doug has the backup plan, if they won't charge, you do. I'm ok with spending 26 more points for a noob catcher or an outside chance at slowing up the big gribbly.

I don't like the BSB+Warbanner+Walking Death combo but only because it puts your eggs in one basket. If you put the Warbanner on the Skellies (where he's probably going to go anyway) then you are still free to move him to a Ghoul unit to provide some more serious opposition if required. Having him locked down in one unit is a big trap - that combat res is exceedingly localised. On the other hand if you could find some points to give him Inf Hatred then he could just about roll a unit by himself on the charge (2-3 str 7 wounds +3CR for the banner/walking death... he looks good for combat res of 5 by himself

Unfortunately Walking Death and Dread Knight are both 25pts and you can't get a Lance and Sheild on a Vamp without it. if I give him Infinite Hatred then he has a marginal save at best. Budling up all the CR is a blessing and a curse, on one hand it means I can loose it all in one but on the other hand he charges in with a Vamps attacks and on his own adds +3CR

I don't think maxing out the character slots is a necessity either but dropping the Necro would likely force you to drop the Wight King for another Vampire which in turn would change the setup of the whole army pretty drastically. Circa 900pts in characters just doesn't look that attractive to me.

I'm unsure as to why, the benefits I get from Characters definitely look much better to my uneducated eyes than throwing in more dudes.

I agree with you on the wolves and probably the Ghouls though.

I was running this Rare setup but have since dropped the Vargulf...Havi ng a Banshee would be very nice (again, not a necessity) but 2 Wraiths + Banshee is forced to operate VERY differently to 3 Wraiths without a Banshee.

I'm thinking the Varghulf is more important to me actually, Dropping the Wraiths gives me 150pts to play with to make positive changes with.

[Fujin]

Oops... yes of course you'd have to drop Walking Death. I suddenly realised that's why MY BSB doesn't have Inf Hatred!

I think you're getting great bang for your buck with the 4 characters - I just have a personal preference for keeping the tally around 750pts and have more units/toys to play the game with.


Lets say you want a third unit of Wolves, more Ghouls and the Raise Ghoul power in your list. Where are the points coming from? Looks like dropping the Wraiths and maybe a unit of Bats to free up the points. Raise Ghouls would have to go on the Lord - is this possible with his current setup of powers? Looks unlikely given he has Red Fury.

The downside to this is that you've lost 2 deployments and your rough terrain option.

[Chris]

Taking the suggestions on board I think I hit a fair balance, I've kept the BSB and Wight King as is for the moment so I can see if the squishiness is a problem in practice. I shuffled points out of the afterthought units into more Dogs, Ghouls and upgrading the Necro to a CasterVamp while still keeping it on the 9PD Cap. I did loose a scroll in the transition which drops me down to 5DD 1Scroll before Periapt, not sure this is enough.

The vunerability of the Lord is also a concern, As I can see he's only sitting on a 3+/5+... I'd love to crack Dread Knight in there for 1+(0+ HW/S)/5+ but thats loosing Hatred or Ghoulkin which its extemely hard to replace.

Vampire Lord (410 pts)*In 16 Ghouls
Vampire; General; Nightmare
      Sword of Might, Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Dispel Scroll, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin

Vampire (200 pts)*In Skeletons
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Lance; Sheild; Undead; Nightmare
      Dread Knight (Barding), Walking Death, BSB, Warbanner

Vampire (185 pts)*In 12 Ghouls
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead
      Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt

Wight King (120 pts)*In Black Knights
Barding; Shield; Undead; Skeletal Steed
      Sword of Kings

18 Crypt Ghouls (152 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

16 Crypt Ghouls (136 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

20 Skeleton Warriors (245 pts)*
Causes Fear; Light Armour; Sheild; Hand Weapon; Undead; Full Command
      Banner of the Dead Legion

Corpse Cart (75 pts)

7 Dire Wolves (66pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead; Doomwolf

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

6 Black Knights (237 pts)
Undead; Wight Blade; Insubstatial Steeds; Standard; Musician
      Banner of the Barrows

3 Fell Bats (60 pts)
Flyer; Undead

Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead
Total: 2245

[Fujin]

Taking the suggestions on board I think I hit a fair balance, I've kept the BSB and Wight King as is for the moment so I can see if the squishiness is a problem in practice. I shuffled points out of the afterthought units into more Dogs, Ghouls and upgrading the Necro to a CasterVamp while still keeping it on the 9PD Cap. I did loose a scroll in the transition which drops me down to 5DD 1Scroll before Periapt, not sure this is enough.

The vunerability of the Lord is also a concern, As I can see he's only sitting on a 3+/5+... I'd love to crack Dread Knight in there for 1+(0+ HW/S)/5+ but thats loosing Hatred or Ghoulkin which its extemely hard to replace.

You might be surprised at how durable he actually is. Given he should be killing most of what is touching him anyway his high toughness, wounds, decent save and ward should see him through the game.

You don't get the HW/Shield bonus if you're mounted.

[Josh]

That looks better Chris. I'd still be tempted to drop Red Fury on the Lord in favour of Summon Ghouls, but that's up to your play testing to decide. For the first 2 turns you're unlikely to to have much to do with the maigc except make zombies which it doesn't sound like you're a fan of 

[Ry.S]

I think wight's best combo is sword of kings and nightshroud challenge out chars and kill them things like arch lectors and any chaos charter run and hide.

I think a necromancer is a better option than the third vampire guaranteeing you have vanhels is worth the drop in killing power its just such a potent part of the vampire equation and hes not that pricey.

[Chris]

Ok,

I'm getting closer to a Vamp list I like, so I present for you my 3rd draft.

I've gone for an almost Strigoi theme, not pure Strigoi because not only would no magic items be rather weak but it'd be a bit boring. I've conciously attempted to keep a lot of the Vamp Red Flags out of the list, the one concession to effectiveness being the Book and Forbidden Lore both making it in. I've found that without a guarantee of having Danse that a Vamp list consisting of M4 blocks has a hard time with the more versatile and Adaptable armies. That said I've taken no Necros, Wraiths, Black Knights or other civilised vampire stuff to keep it mostly in theme. Zombies have grown on me as a cheaper than ghouls way to soak the charges that M4 infantry means I'll be taking and so I'm not all too against them now (just have to find some better models that the current GW ones).

I've got a 200pt Vampire slot and 101pts spare after that to fill but I'm at a loss as to what to do with it. I'd love a second Varghulf as he's the only Rare that fits the theme but Double Rare is hard capped out of 99% of all tournaments and I want this list to be good for most. The Vampire slot I'm toying with a Flying BSB w/ Strike First GW to kill off middling things that want to hurt him or just a Flying ASF GW Vamp to deal with little things on his own, only having 3 Attacks, no rerolls and Crumbling 2 Wounds doesn't make me think this is the best of ideas though.

Looking for Advice on filling those Points in as well as perceptions of the list.
 

Vampire Lord (455 pts)
Vampire; General; Nightmare; Sheld; Lance; Extra Level
      Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll, Biting Blade
      Dread Knight, Forbidden Lore, Summon Ghouls, Infinite Hatred

Vampire (200 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead;
      Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin,
      Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Battle, Talisman of the Lycini

Vampire (195 pts)
Vampire; Hand Weapon; Undead
      Flying Horror, Summon Ghouls,
      Book of Arkahn, Cadaverous Curiass

Vampire (200 pts)  

25 Zombies (100 pts)
Causes Fear; Undead; The Newly Dead, Shambling Horde

25 Zombies (100 pts)
Causes Fear; Undead; The Newly Dead, Shambling Horde

18 Crypt Ghouls (152 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

16 Crypt Ghouls (136 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

12 Crypt Ghouls (104 pts)
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead; Crypt Ghast

6 Dire Wolves (48pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead;

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

5 Dire Wolves (40 pts)
Fast Cavalry; Undead

5 Fell Bats (100 pts)
Flyer; Undead

Varghulf (175 pts)
Vampire; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

101pts to spend

[PaW]

Just a small point
Lance + Biting blade = only biting blade ever used, you are unfortunatley not bretonnia and thus the magic weapon takes priority and is used. So you have actually 105 points to go or something

Might as well go another 5 bats or something like a corpse cart. Should do the trick. Or just get more ghouls to your units.

[Chris]

Lance comes free with the Dread Knight, I had it left in there while I was building. My Bad.

[Fujin]

A Forbidden Lore Vampire that's only Level 2? I don't see a Periapt in there so that's one casting of Van Hel's on 3 dice  +  the Danse from the Book. If you really want to get the spell off consider making him Level 3 and getting the Periapt in the list so he has two attempts on 3 dice. Also this same Vampire has Summon Ghouls - your casting is now divided between an attempt at Van Hel's and raising more Ghouls (which the supporting Summon Ghouls Vamp can do with his dice and the pool dice anyway). Two Summon Ghouls casters might be a bit redundant. It does however give him something to do with one dice if that's a concern. Further thinking - it also gives you a clear casting plan for the opening turn... raise raise raise!

With Infinite Hatred you really want to maximise the impact the General's attacks - I recommend either the Sword of Might (giving you a shot at hurting big stuff with 4 str6 attacks) or Sword of Battle (killing swathes of rank and file with 5 str5 attacks, rerolling misses).

1+ armour/5+ ward is great. 5 dispel dice and 2 scrolls is great. You could also go 6DD/1 scroll if you make the General a Level 3 to give yourself more equipment options (freeing up points losing the 2nd scroll).

Look at a Lynci Vamp or another Dreadknight as the BSB. 30 points for flying on a hero vamp is crippling without either Hatred or Walking Death to back him up and give you some insurance in combat (if he wants to solo out and kill stuff). A Lynci Vamp with Avatar (Great Weapon), Hatred, 2+ save armour has worked well for me. If he has a battle standard you've automatically cancelled outnumber so he's great to tangle with skirmishers and cav. Also a great missile for anti-chariot auto-killing duty.

I don't think ghosts would be out of theme really (graveyard etc). 3 Spirit Hosts could be fun. I agree a 2nd Varghulf would be primo but of course you'd never be able to use it

A 5+ save on the 3rd Vamp (the one with the Cuirass) is almost a bit pointless. Be careful adventurously flying him away somewhere and right of range of the Book's casting ability

A Corpse Cart with Balefire could fill the spare 100pts. Somewhat allows you to reduce the magic defense.


12 drops is a good number for deployment. Looking forward to seeing it on the table!