Chaos Dwarfs in Tournaments

[Chris]

Can NZ TO's get together and figure out whether CD's should be using Ravening Hordes or the Indy GT book? Its pretty mind boggling to pick and mix.

In my latest mad flight of fancy about a WFB army I considered Chaos Dwarves but the 50/50 of which book (Indy GT is much more fun) I would be needing the models for (Deamoneaters v Blorcs v Kolossus v etc.) just makes it a massive hassle.

JMO though.

[Josh]

I would be surprised if the Indy GT book doesn't become standard next year (Fluffycon excluded it seems).

[pete dunn]

All DBM Ent events (Vermintide, Warpfire, Runefang, Horned Rat, Skitterleap, Masters) are using Indy GT list.

Pete

[Antony]

The Indy CD list definately pimps the CD tier standing.

It is a fan book in the same way that Alessios' Skaven was.

[Glenn Patel]

If by pimps, you means degrades, then yes. The war machines got *worse*, the Sorceror Lord got *worse* (okay, he got better items, but he went down 1 Ld and up in cost), hobgoblins got *worse*... arguably Blunderbusses got worse too (have to be 5 wide, not 4, and you can now screen against them). Bull Centaurs got worse (by a Ld) but at least they went down to Special.

It adds an actual magic items list (albeit a poor one), the distinctly underpowered Eruption Gun, makes command 5-10 points cheaper, does allow you to take 5 strong wolfboyz units (honestly, I'd gotten used to them being massive... it's actually quite useful having 4+ saving fast cavalry... that's gone too, naturally), and adds three new rare units (all of which are crap*).

Oh, and it added a unit of elite dwarven infantry. Because that is useful or something.


Okay, and Chaos Armour availability is nifty... but you certainly pay for it. Compared to Chaos Warriors, you end up down a point of S, A, WS and M and +1 Ld... that's a pretty big difference for 12 vs 15 ppm.

Oh! And if you DON'T take a Sorceror Lord, your magic phase is much, much worse, because you can't use the two pool power dice...


I like the list, but it is not an improvement; it's mostly just an inspiration to get models modelled and painted.

It makes the list more diverse, but less powerful.


* Hellcannon is good in it's way, but the Earthshaker is a better Stone Thrower. Inferno Golems are expensive and intentionally designed to not be better than Treekin or Dragon Ogres. The Kollossus looks cool, but then you realise you just paid 100 extra points for a Stegadon that isn't stubborn and doesn't fight in close combat.

[Vaul]

popularizing the use of an indy list in tournaments creates a precedent for the popular use of further indy lists, and when the community is in the drivers seat as far as competitive warhammer is concerned, as opposed to the game designers themselves, it can only be a good thing.

[Antony]

Indy book = good thing

Glen can you share some of what you are smoking?

[Glenn Patel]

Indy book = good thing

Glen can you share some of what you are smoking?

Bolt Throwers went up by 5pts for no gain.
Death Rockets went from being better stone throwers to doing S3 hits that allow armour saves.
The Earthshaker lost an average of 2" from it's Earthshaking area.
Sorceror Lord went up a few points, lost a point of Leadership, and gained a 4+ armour save and +1 attack. Because you *want* your Level Four spellcaster in melee, sure you do.
 Oh hey, the Bull Centaur heroes lost a point of Leadership too!
Hobgoblins lost a point of Leadership when given LA/Sh (which you can buy back for +1 ppm)
Hobgoblins lost a point of Leadership AND WS when not given LA/Sh, and the minimum unit size went from 10 to 20.
Hobgoblins lost a point of Leadership when mounted on Wolves (again, can spend a point to buy it back), and lost the ability to take LA/Sh and be fast cav.

Blunderbusses swapped the "fire zone" for "shoot one unit". It makes them quicker and easier to use, but needing more than 12 models to get S5 hits is substantial loss (RH blunderbusses are like RAW Beast Herds, except it benefits them...).

Bull Centaurs are the exact same cost (assuming you equip them the same), but get -1 Leadership for no gain. Only improvement is the option to take Chaos Armour, which... is arguably not worth the points, and certainly not worth -1 Leadership.


None of the Indy rare choices are as good as the RH Earthshakers. None of the Indy special choices are as good as the RH bolt throwers. None of the indy core choices are as good as the RH Hobgoblins. (and the core mandatory Dwarfs are only slightly improved... by which I mean -5pts on the cost of musicians, and the chaos armour option)

Have I mentioned HALF THE ARMY LOSING A POINT OF LEADERSHIP?

I've actually played with and built lists for both. The Indy list is different, but it loses a LOT from the RH list.

[richardbarby]

good venting glenn

if as some people keep banding around they will be in the new book and box set when it comes out (as much as i would wet my pants over it i dont think its happening) however if so both list will replaced by a new one right?

but for hybrid of both and my wish list
ld 10 heros from RH
ld 9 bull centures from RH
indy bulnderbusses there quicker and easier to use save so much time with them
gits from indy the scouting is fun but bring back there wrap around
git assasin hero choice seems a good idea
lower level mages its seems odd that will out them
keep the obcidian guard 
bolt throwers 30 points goblins are 35 as they have more crew(or they get an extra crew member)
2d6 area on the earthshakers
mage lords ld 10

[Glenn Patel]

I'm not complaining about the Indy list; it makes a lot of good changes, getting rid of stupid stuff from Ravening Hordes (WS3 2 ppm troops. Min size 10+ fast cavalry. Leadership values BETTER than normal Dwarfs. Even stuff like the 2d6" -> template on the Earthshaker).

It's just that the Indy GT book isn't a power upgrade. Unlike GW, the Indy GT guys don't profit from power creep. They made a book that wasn't stronger than the existing one, just more flavourful and with more options.