Equinox WHFB players pack

[warpmaster]

Well the book is due for release a month ahead of the tournament. Votes on if it should be included in the the tournament.

I vote yes for the new beastmen book, but i don't think you will get any beastmen armies signing up seeing how the rumors are pointing towards having to rebase all ungors back to 20mm base

[PaW]

i thought the whole point of hard caps, was so people can bring the hardest list possible?
Thats the type of tournament you are after, People are still going to find the loopholes in hard caps so therefore you might as well release as best you can then stop the discussion, because there are going to be loopholes found,
whether they are taken or not is the users choice.

Im biased because i really prefer judge/peer review
because i have no intrest in taking the hardest filthest thing possible, i prefer non-point and click

On the subject of EotG / Slann Bunker, I don't mind it.
Lizards are a good army, Its not really the Slann bunker or the EotG units by themselves that you have to consider. You are considering just the apples in the Fruit basket. The rest of the army gels together very well and complements it. So much so that as Ryan proved. Eotg is not a necessity to win. Lizards have a good book.

[Simon]

Anyway. Hard Caps are going to discourage softer builds for any given army, no two ways about it. Frankly, I'm expecting a harder-than-usual field; this is *why* I don't feel it's a good idea to overly nerf any one army book.


WRT the Daemons list... you are right, it does stop the horror spam. And even caps Flamers at 6.

Thing is, I don't think these (or knocking off the rerolls on the BT) are substantial downgrades, and definately not compared to what caps do to other armies. Magic is going to be weakened a bit, but that's across the board, and nurgle walls are just as aggravating to hack through.

I just found it really funny how u think some of the hardcaps on demon are not subtantial downgrades, while slann, EOTG, temple guard bunker is "acceptable standard build" for a lizardmen army.

if demon ends up in tier 1, lizardmen should start around 100 + VP more than any demon build, if demon is at a higher tier, then I should expect their "acceptable standard build" is "harder" than lizardmen "acceptable standard build". but IMO it is not. a greater demon without nasty gifts, with limited flamers and herald without gift + standard is NOT harder than a slann, banehead, temple guard, EOTG build. it is probably "as good", but not "harder".

So why should anyone take a tier 1 daemon list when they can take a "as good" tier 3 or 4 lizardmen army???

well, u might think a greater demon without nasty gifts, with limited flamers and herald without gift + standard is harder than a slann, banehead, temple guard, EOTG build, but it is sololy your own opinion. some might agree and some might not.

so where do u draw the line?

[Fujin]

High Elves are cheese. That is all.


Please feed the troll.

[Fujin]

Seriously though (if indeed it's possible to approach this debate with a degree of seriousness)...

The pack is fine. It tries something a little different and that should be applauded. We'll have a much better idea about how the system works after the event. And another tournament on the calendar is great so no complaints from me. Kudos to the organisers.


If 1/2 the players field Lizardmen based on their supposed potential to rort the system I'll be very surprised. I just don't think most Kiwis are that gamey (although clearly some are!). I think we'll see a good spread of armies geared to take on hard lists. Sounds fine to me.

Looking forward to it - will make a neat contrast to FluffyCon (which will also be excellent I'm sure).

[Vaul]

Antony said he could lend me his lizardmen army for the event, but he only has one stegadon model.  Does anyone have a second I could use?  I'll need more terradons too.

[Philfy]

Antony said he could lend me his lizardmen army for the event, but he only has one stegadon model.  Does anyone have a second I could use?  I'll need more terradons too.

Antony is obviously not as much of a cheesy-e-meister as you Vaul   

[Glenn Patel]

Anyway. Hard Caps are going to discourage softer builds for any given army, no two ways about it. Frankly, I'm expecting a harder-than-usual field; this is *why* I don't feel it's a good idea to overly nerf any one army book.


WRT the Daemons list... you are right, it does stop the horror spam. And even caps Flamers at 6.

Thing is, I don't think these (or knocking off the rerolls on the BT) are substantial downgrades, and definately not compared to what caps do to other armies. Magic is going to be weakened a bit, but that's across the board, and nurgle walls are just as aggravating to hack through.

I just found it really funny how u think some of the hardcaps on demon are not subtantial downgrades, while slann, EOTG, temple guard bunkers is "acceptable standard build" for a lizardmen army.

if demon ends up in tier 1, lizardmen should start around 100 + VP more than any demon build, if demon is at a high tier, then I should expect their "acceptable standard build" is "harder" than lizardmen "acceptable standard build". but IMO it is not. a greater demon without nasty gifts, with limited flamers and herald without gift + standard is NOT harder than a slann, banehead, temple guard, EOTG build. it is probably "as good", but not "harder".

So why should anyone take a tier 1 daemon list when they can take a "as good" tier 3 or 4 lizardmen army???

well, u might think a greater demon without nasty gifts, with limited flamers and herald without gift + standard is harder than a slann, banehead, temple guard, EOTG build, but it is sololy your own opinion. some might agree and some might not.

so where do u draw the line?

I was arguing against the opinion that Lizardmen are *more* powerful than Daemons under the caps system, and against the notion that they'll need more restrictions layered on. Omegakai's list placed them iirc 2-3 spots *lower* than Daemons.

[Simon]

I was arguing against the opinion that Lizardmen are *more* powerful than Daemons under the caps system, and against the notion that they'll need more restrictions layered on. Omegakai's list placed them iirc 2-3 spots *lower* than Daemons.

they are, if not as good.

[pete dunn]

Rather than the participants determining the Tiers wouldn't it be best to send the Hard Caps out to a group of experienced neutrals and have them determine the ranking?

Certainly it is less open to gerrymandering .

Regards

Pete

P.S. Reading this thread has reminded me how Mussolini came to power  

[Simon]

participants determine the Tiers please.

[Fujin]

Certainly it is less open to gerrymandering .

Nice. Showing your age there Pete.

Gerrymandering?! Wow...

[Josh]

"Experienced Neutrals"... C'mon Pete, what are they going to offer that normal tournament players can't? They are still just as biased towards certain armies as was shown in the FoB judging by those Ausies.

The whole point of the process is that the tiers are determined democratically in order to: 1# give the organisers less responsibility, and 2# negate complaints about how this army should be in that tier, etc, etc. Let the people speak, and all that...

No, tiers will definitely be determined by the players.

[pete dunn]

"Experienced Neutrals"... C'mon Pete, what are they going to offer that normal tournament players can't? They are still just as biased towards certain armies as was shown in the FoB judging by those Ausies.

No, tiers will definitely be determined by the players.

What can they offer? Ah, they are neutral.

Can I just check the mechanism at work here re the Players Pack. The downloaded version says Nick and Phil are TOs but no mention of who the Umpire is. Antony posted the pack so I'm guessing he's involved. Josh has said Tiers will be player determined - I'm not sure if that's a personal view or it is a final decision by Umpire/TO. The process is very unclear (well it is to somebody who hasn't been privy to the wider conversations at City Guard).

Whoever is collating the information could you mark me down as having a preference for panel rather than players deciding tiers. Also is there any thought as yet as to the gaps for Skaven (if any) or will that be determined from what they go with at UK/Oz Masters?

[Josh]

Neutral towards the tournament perhaps, but still biased towards the armies they are judging.

TO/Umpire = Phil Wu
Players Pack = Antony and myself 

[James.M]

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

Wouldn't that provide a more, um.... useful evaluation? I'm sure there are enough of you with said armies floating around to playtest the restrictions.

But more seriously, I agree with Dave. High Elves are cheese.

[Simon]

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

Yes, me.

few things I learnt:

Slann + banehead = dead greater demon
temple guard bunker is as good as plaguebearer bunker
never take on EOTG if u don't have a Greater demon. especially when there are 2 of them around.

Lizardmen are cheese. Tier 1 from me, guarantee.

 

[wouster7]

negate complaints about how this army should be in that tier, etc, etc. Let the people speak, and all that...

No, tiers will definitely be determined by the players.

The community should have their say since even experienced neutrals will agree to disagree.

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

We had a CheesyCon tourney up here recently and Dave Grant took a 3 steg, Bunker army vs Simon with G.Daemon Siren song and chaff DoC. I recall it being a overwhelming Lizzie celebration. (damn you post quick Simon)

[Simon]

We had a CheesyCon tourney up here recently and Dave Grant took a 3 steg, Bunker army vs Simon with G.Daemon Siren song and chaff DoC. I recall it being a overwhelming Lizzie celebration. (damn you post quick Simon)

well, i didn't have the chance to play him, becuase he was busy packing up to UK.
but i can sort of forsee the result.

I did test play my supra nasty demon list VS a similiar lizardmen list against my friend.

if the lizardmen player knows what he is doing, and if your list is not design to take on the dinsauor army, u r pretty much asking for a spank.

daemon has the gears to take on lizardmen but a list like that is not usually usable in normal tournament.

[James.M]

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

Yes, me.

few things I learnt:

Slann + banehead = dead greater demon
temple guard bunker is as good as plaguebearer bunker
never take on EOTG if u don't have a Greater demon. especially when there are 2 of them around.

Lizardmen are cheese. Tier 1 from me, guarantee.

Cool, just checking. I learnt that lesson at Fields 08 when my Keeper died first turn to Glen's Slaan 

Phil, would Dave's army have fit under the Equinox restrictions though? Sorry, that was what I trying to get at. Taking unrestricted armies isn't indicative of what they play like under Equinox restrictions.

[wouster7]

Phil, would Dave's army have fit under the Equinox restrictions though? Sorry, that was what I trying to get at. Taking unrestricted armies isn't indicative of what they play like under Equinox restrictions.

Every army will still have strong tools to bring even with the Hardcaps. It will be a very interesting new competitive edge to WFB which I'll be looking forward to catching at Equinox. If you want to try some matchups before you leave for the OE James you better book some friday games before FluffCon bro. I'll borrow a lizard army if needs be or you can choose the 5 or 6 I have around.

[Glenn Patel]

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

Yes, me.

few things I learnt:

Slann + banehead = dead greater demon
temple guard bunker is as good as plaguebearer bunker
never take on EOTG if u don't have a Greater demon. especially when there are 2 of them around.

Lizardmen are cheese. Tier 1 from me, guarantee.

Cool, just checking. I learnt that lesson at Fields 08 when my Keeper died first turn to Glen's Slaan 

Phil, would Dave's army have fit under the Equinox restrictions though? Sorry, that was what I trying to get at. Taking unrestricted armies isn't indicative of what they play like under Equinox restrictions.

No. To fit the Equinox PP it would have to cut one of the EoTG's outright (to get down to two terror causers and only one Ancient Stegadon) and would have not been able to use all 12 (15 in the original) power dice it could generate, due to the power dice caps.

(I played in the league as well... I took a ShadeStar and played INCREDIBLY BADLY; I had to win my first match of the League with half my army AWOL thanks to misplays...)


And yeah... okay, Bane Head on a Frog is good against GD's. Still, it saddles the big toad with Lore of Light, which has an appreciable drop-off in quality after the default spell... 6th ed toad was *much* better at sniping GD's.

[omegakai]

"interesting new competitive edge to WFB "

by this you mean ?

[Philfy]

"interesting new competitive edge to WFB "

by this you mean ?

I would take it to mean that the hard caps, leading to a 'raising of the bar" in regards to slightly harder armies, thereby making the competitive edge a little more cut-throat than it has been...

[Glenn Patel]

Random question here: Rather than all the apparent Math-Hammering going on here regarding which army is getting neutered more than which other army, has anyone actually played Daemons vs Lizards under these restrictions, using "maxed out" armies?

Wouldn't that provide a more, um.... useful evaluation? I'm sure there are enough of you with said armies floating around to playtest the restrictions.

But more seriously, I agree with Dave. High Elves are cheese.

The problem is, I don't think anyone can prove their point by winning with an army they own, because on my side I'm going "Lizards are fine!" and I don't have a Daemons army, and I believe vice versa for Simon, and some third parties don't have EITHER...

So if people were willing to cooperate and lend out armies for the sole purpose of proving this point, then that could work... or I suppose we  could count on the inherent desire to win trumping any subconscious urges to throw a match, so sure, next week (this week is booked), I'll give someone a game who wants to try to prove the point (although I still think it'd be best if it was army swapped, and am prepared to hand over my lizzies! )

[Glenn Patel]

Beastmen should not be included unless we feel there is enough time to assess the strength of the army and complete the hardcaps for it inside a week of its release (to allow players enough time to tone their lists). I don't think there is enough time.

This. Honestly, we were debating whether to allow the *new Skaven book*, let alone Beastmen. nBeasts sit this one out.

[Simon]

The problem is, I don't think anyone can prove their point by winning with an army they own, because on my side I'm going "Lizards are fine!" and I don't have a Daemons army, and I believe vice versa for Simon, and some third parties don't have EITHER...

I Do have a Lizardmen army, I just don't use it very much. Im going to bring it on the 29th so I can practice my equinox list, there are a few things i don't have, such as teraddons and EOTGs.

[Glenn Patel]

The problem is, I don't think anyone can prove their point by winning with an army they own, because on my side I'm going "Lizards are fine!" and I don't have a Daemons army, and I believe vice versa for Simon, and some third parties don't have EITHER...

I Do have a Lizardmen army, I just don't use it very much. Im going to bring it on the 29th so I can practice my equinox list, there are a few things i don't have, such as teraddons and EOTGs.

I stand corrected!

[Josh]

I have a Lizard army too... I've just haven't used it yet 

[James]

The problem is, I don't think anyone can prove their point by winning with an army they own, because on my side I'm going "Lizards are fine!" and I don't have a Daemons army, and I believe vice versa for Simon, and some third parties don't have EITHER...

I Do have a Lizardmen army, I just don't use it very much. Im going to bring it on the 29th so I can practice my equinox list, there are a few things i don't have, such as teraddons and EOTGs.

Thats not a lizard army