Equinox WHFB players pack

[Antony]

Here is a cut and paste of the players pack. It is in "draft" status given that some of the army specific hard caps and weighting may change (skaven edit etc), but this should be enough to get you started.

Equinox WHFB Tournament Pack - draft v1
When: 20th and 21st March 2010
...
Playing the Tournament
Models used in the tournament must be representative of the troop type used. Models should be painted with at least three colours and appropriately based.
There will be 6 games in the tournament. Each game will be a pitched battle.
The victory points (VP) from each game will be modified by each army handicap and the result from each game will result in 0-20 points as per the table below. With six games the total for battle is 0-120 points overall.
VP difference after bonus
2800 +   20
2350 – 2799   19
2000 – 2349   18
1650 – 1999   17
1400 – 1649   16
1150 – 1399   15
900 – 1149   14
650 – 899   13
400 – 649   12
150 – 399   11
0 – 149   10

At the end of each game each player will judge the conduct of the other player. This sportsmanship score will contribute 0-4 points per game. This will contribute 0-24 points to the overall score.

Each army will be marked by a judge for appearance. This will contribute up to 0-12 points to the overall score.
The players with the highest overall scores will be eligible for prizes and other glory.

There will be a favourite sports vote and award.

There will be a player’s choice vote and award for army appearance for the armies that have been painted by the player fielding the army.

The first round of the tournament will be between randomly drawn players, although grudge matches will be allowed. Subsequent draws will be based on matching battle points (Swiss chess).

Any rules queries that need a reference other that the GW published material should refer to Direwolf FAQ.

Army composition, restrictions and bonuses
In this tournament the objective of army composition and bonuses is to give an army from any of the Warhammer races the prospect of a competitive game against another army from any of the other army races. Every army will receive a victory point (VP) bonus during each game determined by its army race (see later).

Armies: 2250 points from any current army book published earlier than one month prior to the tournament date.  Special and named characters, Albion and “back of the book” armies and units are not permitted. Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown are only eligible in Dogs of War Armies
Dogs of War from 2002 Annual may take a Warbanner in a single unit of pikes, heavy cav. or paymasters body guard.

Chaos Dwarfs will use the US Indy Circuit list (Sept 2009).

Ogre Kingdoms armies may take rhinox cavalry as a single rare choice.

Games will be played with full disclosure of army lists.

Army lists must be submitted to the TO before the due date. Army lists must have every entry, item, and upgrade individually itemised. Army lists that are submitted late may be docked 1 tourney point per day that they are late.

Army Handicaps: When you submit your army list you will be required to rank each army race, except for the one you are playing, in the order of what you perceive to be most powerful to least powerful, taking into account the army restrictions (see later). The scores from each player will be averaged and then ranked.
The army ranked most powerful will get a 0 VP bonus, the army ranked least powerful will get 600 VP, and each army in between will get a proportional point bonus. You will be told what each army has before the tournament. The bonus will applied as VP to the score for each game you play during the tournament.

Army Restrictions
Terror causers are restricted to either 1 flying large target or 2 other.

No duplicate rare choices (except HE that may duplicate each choice).

Only one duplicate special choice.

Only one triplicate core choice (restriction does not apply to non shooting ranked infantry and beast herds). Units that are upgraded count as their original unit.

Large target characters and/or mounts that ordinarily count as a rare or a special choice still cost and count as the original rare or special choice in regards to slots and unit duplication.

0- 4 war machines. This includes weapons teams or similar, each multiple of 6 jezzails (round up), daemon engines, screaming bells (and similar), steam tanks, and anvils of doom but not gyrocopters.

No more than 45 models (30 for Dwarves, DE and DoC) with ranged attacks (incl. spells) with a potential strength of 5+ or a range of 18”+ (excl. war machines and characters).

No more than 3 units (incl. characters in all cases) of flyers, or units with a normal move of 10”+, or tunellers (inclusive).

No more than three chariots or units of chariots (incl. characters).

At least half of the units that can, must take a standard (excluding fast cav., skirmishers and units that are mostly armed with ranged weapons).

A max of 9 PD regardless of source may be used in a single magic phase. There is no limit to the number of PD generated; only used.
The 1st bound spell in a phase counts as 1 PD used, others count as 2 PD.
Each caster with the knowledge of each spell in a lore or the ability to choose spells counts as 1 PD per phase. For races where knowing all spells is an army wide ability (OK and TK) this restriction does not apply.
TK incantations count as 1 PD per dice used (incl. Jar and Casket).
PD stored, for example in the Rod of Power, or used to dispel spells count towards the number of PD used.
Abilities or items that allow +1 to cast count as 1 PD for each item or ability. Duplicates of abilities do not stack. For example you may have multiple casters with Mo Tz, it counts as +1PD only. Skull of Katum in the same army counts as an additional +1PD.

No more than 10 DD may be generated in any one magic phase (MR is “free”).
The first dispel scroll (or equiv.) in an army at the beginning of a magic phase counts as 1 DD per turn. Other dispel scrolls in an army count as 2 DD per turn.
Abilities or items that allow +1 to dispel count as 1 DD each.

Army specific restrictions:
Dark Elves
Ring of Hotek counts as 3 dispel dice each phase.
Sacrificial Dagger and Pendant of Khaleth each cost a hero slot.
Each Assassin after the first counts as a hero choice.
Shades are limited to a max unit size of 6 models.

High Elves
Book of Hoeth counts as 2 PD per phase.
Star Dragons cost an extra 2 rare slots.
Bow of the Seafarer counts as a rare choice and 10 shooting models.
Reaver Bow counts as 10 shooting models.
The Battle Banner costs a hero slot.

Wood Elves
A Treeman Ancient with The Annoyance of Netlings costs an extra hero slot.
The Hail of Doom Arrow counts as 10 shooting models.

Demons of Chaos
Greater Demons cost a hero slot and a rare slot.
Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury, Keeper of Secrets with Siren Song and Lord of Change with Will of Tzeentch are not permitted.
Herald BSB may not take both Gifts and an Icon.
The Great Icon of Despair, Banner of Unholy Victory and Standard of Chaos Glory each cost a hero slot.
Gifts and Icons, except Spellbreakers, may not be duplicated.
The Great Standard of Sundering counts as 1 DD.
Flamers of Tzeentch are limited in unit size to 5 models

Vampire Counts
The Helm of Commandment on a Lord costs a hero and a rare slot
The Drakenhoff Banner costs a hero and a rare slot.
Ghoulkin costs a hero slot
Max. unit size of Wraiths is 6 models.
Skull Staff counts as 2 PD and 1 DD inclusive of other restrictions.
Each Corpse Cart with Balefire counts as 1 DD.

Empire
A Steam Tank and War Alter cannot be taken together.

Lizardmen
Terradons limited in unit size to max. 5 models.
Becalming Cogitation counts as 1 DD.

Dogs of War
Maneater units are 0-1.

[Vaul]

Here's a little draft of my own, based on reid's natcon list.  I changed a few things here and there.

140 - Dreadlord
12  - Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak
10  - repeater crossbow
35  - Armour of eternal servitude
15  - Soul Render      - 212   

105 - Master BSB
30  - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, great weapon,
shield, pair of repeater handbows
40  - Ring of Darkness      - 175

135 - lvl2 Sorceress
50  - 2x Scrolls      - 185

135 - lvl2 Sorceress
30  - Seal of Ghrond      - 165

*** 737

135 - 5x Cold one Knights

108 - 6x Shades w/great weapons

182 - 14x Black Guard
14  - Tower Master
15  - Null Talisman
14  - Standard Bearer
35  - Banner of Hag Graef   - 260

55  - 5x Harpies

55  - 5x Harpies

117 - 5x Dark Riders w/musician & rep crossbows

117 - 5x Dark Riders w/musician & rep crossbows

140 - 20x Dark Elf warriors w/shields
6   - Lordling
31  - standard: warbanner   - 177

110 - 10x Crossbowmen w/shields

200 - 2x RBT's

175 - War Hydra

[2246]

[Vaul]

Heres's a little lizardmen draft as well, honestly I haven't spent the last 30 points because I don't think the list needs it  btw credit to glen and ryan for some of the hard combos present in this one.

275  - Slaan Mage Priest
free - focus of mystery
50   - Becalming cogitation
45   - cupped hands of the old ones
15   - Bane head
50   - BSB + War Banner      - 435

65   - Skink Priest
35   - Level 2
290  - Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods
25   - Dispel Scroll   
25   - Diadem of Power      - 440

85   - Scar Vet
8    - Light Armour, Shield
20   - Sword of Battle
25   - Charm of the Jaguar Warrior   - 138

*** 1013

70 - 10x Skink Skirmishers

70 - 10x Skink Skirmishers

150 - 12x Saurus Warriors w/spears + musician

256 - 16x Templeguard
28  - champ + standard
25  - Huanchi's Blessed Totem   - 309

72  - 6x chameleon Skinks

150 - 5x Terradons

150 - 5x Terradons

235 - Stegadon  (whoops might have gone over the specials limit!  perhaps an ancient steg here and drop some other stuff)

[1206]

[2219]

[omegakai]

anyone got a liz army i can borrow?

[nik_]

Players pack can be downloaded and viewed at http://homepages.xnet.co.nz/~nick.irvine/. I will keep it up to date with the changes as they are made.

[Philfy]

Interesting Pack.

At first glance I am reminded of all the things people said "against" Cancon over the past few years.

Its also indicative of a worrying trend toward complexity that can only befuddle an confuse tourney noobs.

Won't stop me playing, and I'm going to have fun working through army lists to see what I can come up with.

[Vaul]

one point that the club president made to me personally was that looking at this pack a lot of new warhammer players could be quite intimidated.  I see where you and he are coming from - if you didn't understand restrictions like those in this lineup, you would certainly not feel confident about submitting an army list.  But all said and done, it's a decent player's pack so far, and i'm glad that there will be at least one tournament in the year with caps like this.

[Glenn Patel]

Can't make the Steg Ancient (Engine is an Ancient Steg, so would be double rare). Drop the Chameleons; as much as I love the Chammandoes they're not really very good.

Btw, remember, you're only allowed to use eight power dice with Focus of Mystery. This list might be obnoxious to encounter, but it's not going to be dominating to play with.

[Fujin]

Looks good to me, especially in light of the fact that players have the option of attending FluffyCon earlier in the year if they want a "softer" event. I'm really pleased some initiative has been taken to establish and run another event in the calendar.

It's a comparatively short player's pack that's no more complicated that FluffyCon, Fields or pretty much anything else out there. Not too much of a hassle to read through the restrictions after you've built your list and make sure it fits the requirements.

The army restrictions look appropriate. I'd almost suggest limiting the number of skirmishing units a player can take but this sort of scenario is covered by the general restrictions anyway (i.e. you could take 3 units of Skirmishing Skinks with blow-pipes an no more).


You might also have capped points spent on Lords/Heroes but it starts to look a little too FluffyCon then (and it already looks very FluffyCon in it's approach).

I must admit, given I have the slots free anyway, it's very tempting to take the Drakenhof Banner to this event.

[Josh]

Absolutely nothing wrong with Luke's lists in this environment. I would be happy to face either in this tournament. If that's the worse we will see at the tournament, I feel the comp system has entirely succeeded. I have been toying with a Gateway list, but will have to do a bunch of play testing to get things right. 

[Simon]

those 2 lists look pretty good.

similiar to OZ Masters standard lists.

from the above hard caps and restriction, I personally think Lizardmen and Dark elves are definitely in the Tier 1.

[Antony]

...
from the above hard caps and restriction, I personally think Lizardmen and Dark elves are definitely in the Tier 1.

Spoken like a true Demons player 

[Big D]

As the current resident Warhammer noob, I find this player pack very easy to follow. The restrictions are clear and simple to work through in a checklist-style fashion to mark off each point against an army list. Just reading it now, my VC list will fit under the caps nicely.

I am actually more worried about the Flufficon players pack and where I may be able to get a copy of last years (or the current) players pack, as I have a feeling I may need to buy a whole lot of new models in order to make a Fluffycion list. (Figure I would probably need to replace the Wraiths+Coach combo).

[Glenn Patel]

Totally. Your vamps are pretty nice and fluffy and should be a good fit. (incidently, as of now, the list I was running would be legal, but would have the absolute maximum allowable magic defense... *whistles*)

Fluffycon *is* likely to ban double terror causers, so yeah, you'll need another 200pts of something (I'd probably recommend Knights).

[Simon]

I am actually more worried about the Flufficon players pack and where I may be able to get a copy of last years (or the current) players pack, as I have a feeling I may need to buy a whole lot of new models in order to make a Fluffycion list. (Figure I would probably need to replace the Wraiths+Coach combo).

u can borrow some of my models if u want, but they are not painted.

[Antony]

As the current resident Warhammer noob, I find this player pack very easy to follow. The restrictions are clear and simple to work through in a checklist-style fashion to mark off each point against an army list.

It was very specifically your noobness that sent the pack in the direction it has headed. Trying to explain to a noob peer comp, and the dos and don'ts is beyond me 

[Simon]

A max of 9 PD regardless of source may be used in a single magic phase

so i can take an army that generate more than 9PDs as lon as I only use 9 per turn only??

becuase I am thinking about taking my mono tzeentch daemon (my only fully painted daemon army) just for fun.

Lord of change
tzeentch herald

20 horrors
20 horrors
20 horrors

3 screamers
3 screamers

5 flamers

[Antony]

No more than 45 models (30 for Dwarves, DE and DoC) with ranged attacks (incl. spells) with a potential strength of 5+ or a range of 18”+ (excl. war machines and characters).

This would limit your horrors to say two units of 13 and 4 flamers

[Ry.S]

Damm can't have 2 solo salamanders... ...... end of warhammer as i know it!

Try and finish my WoC army for this.

[Fujin]

No more than 45 models (30 for Dwarves, DE and DoC) with ranged attacks (incl. spells) with a potential strength of 5+ or a range of 18”+ (excl. war machines and characters).

This would limit your horrors to say two units of 13 and 4 flamers

The system works!!!

[Josh]

those 2 lists look pretty good.

similiar to OZ Masters standard lists.

from the above hard caps and restriction, I personally think Lizardmen and Dark elves are definitely in the Tier 1.

No, there isn't 4-5 tiers, there's one for every army. Try reading that part again.

[Philfy]

Whats the painting criteria guys?

[Simon]

No more than 45 models (30 for Dwarves, DE and DoC) with ranged attacks (incl. spells) with a potential strength of 5+ or a range of 18”+ (excl. war machines and characters).

since magic phase is restricted to 9 PDs maximum anyway, I don't see why u need to put restriction on numbers of horrors. if i'm going to cast the spells generated by the horrors, then I can't use all the PDs generated by Lord of Change or herald.

[wouster7]

It's not designed as a Daemon block (maybe it is ). It's there as a overall restriction for all armies. The fact that you are experiencing some hurdles to taking a horror, flamer spam army encourages me that the system is working a treat.

[Simon]

It's not designed as a Daemon block (maybe it is ). It's there as a overall restriction for all armies. The fact that you are experiencing some hurdles to taking a horror, flamer spam army encourages me that the system is working a treat.

will u want to face

Lord of Change
20 horrors
20 horrors
20 horrors
5flamers

which restricted to 9PDs per magic phase and 3 blocks of toliet paper

OR

Lord of Change
20 Horrors
20 plaguebearers
20 bloodletters
5 flamers

which has 8PDS per magic phase + a bunker + combat unit??

The fact that you are experiencing some hurdles to taking a horror, flamer spam army encourages me that the system is working a treat.

also, if a star dragon, white lions, RBTs spam army is allowed, I really don't see why a lord of change, horrors, flamers army is restricted.

give me a star dragon list, I will take it over a mono tzeentch daemon list any day.

[wouster7]

also, if a star dragon, white lions, RBTs spam army is allowed, I really don't see why a lord of change, horrors, flamers army is restricted.

I know what you mean about a certain StarDragon list that sported 5 RBT's. I faced that with my masters list as a warm up to this years masters but it roughly added up to 2500pts anyway and it lost cos I had some cool luck.

If you take a Star Chook it restricts the HE army to 2 rare choices. So you can have one eagle and one RBT which would pretty much put you up against it if the Chook got cowered. If you were to take the Seafarer bow you'd lose another rare so the RBT spam would never happen. Anyways Simon I'd be taking a WoC list if I was playing and you'd run over it with any Daemons you cared to take  

[Glenn Patel]

I actually somewhat agree with Simon; counting Horrors as shooting troops is kinda weird. That said... I think the idea is to "discourage" the HUGE block of Horrors option, as they're kinda obnoxious.

Incidently, Simon?

20 Horrors
20 Horrors
20 Horrors

BLOODTHIRSTER

is what we're more likely to see. I think the aim is to make people run Daemon core that aren't units of Horrors (because taking your spellcasting in core and your killing power in Characters, Special and Rare is NAAASTY!).


Remember, we have to assume people will reach for the hard caps in the most powerful way they can.

[Vaul]

Remember, we have to assume people will reach for the hard caps in the most powerful way they can.

This, see i've been looking for a good way to describe it and glenn hits the nail here.  Players looking to be successful will not deliberately take any soft options or make any concessions - they don't have to.  Having hard caps presents only one challenge - to make the most efficient list under the system. 

There are pros and cons.  I think it's great!  There just shouldn't be any illusion here - lists will generally be very hard, and will have similar combinations in them.  If you CAN take hydra + 2xRBT you would be making an obvious mistake not taking that.  If you CAN take up to 9PD you may as well take exactly 9PD!  If you CAN take a drakenhoff banner and can't see a more powerful list that uses full hero slots without that banner, then you will.  And if everyone sees this (which they should) we'll see a lot of very very similar armies, much more so than with subjective panel comp, which allows for the entrants to make their own decision about how heavily they want to rely on hard or soft scores in some sort of potential way.  That decision is definately not a no-brainer decision and is a matter that I personally get some amount of satisfaction and enjoyment trying to solve when I plan for an event.

But i'm ok with that, because having at least one tournament like this means variety on the larger scale of the scene, if not in the smaller scale of the armies showing up, if you get my drift.

[Simon]

Remember, we have to assume people will reach for the hard caps in the most powerful way they can.

in that case, i will use my tomb king, but it is unpainted.

Whats the painting criteria??

[Glenn Patel]

Remember, we have to assume people will reach for the hard caps in the most powerful way they can.

This, see i've been looking for a good way to describe it and glenn hits the nail here.  Players looking to be successful will not deliberately take any soft options or make any concessions - they don't have to.  Having hard caps presents only one challenge - to make the most efficient list under the system. 

There are pros and cons.  I think it's great!  There just shouldn't be any illusion here - lists will generally be very hard, and will have similar combinations in them.  If you CAN take hydra + 2xRBT you would be making an obvious mistake not taking that.  If you CAN take up to 9PD you may as well take exactly 9PD!  If you CAN take a drakenhoff banner and can't see a more powerful list that uses full hero slots without that banner, then you will.  And if everyone sees this (which they should) we'll see a lot of very very similar armies, much more so than with subjective panel comp, which allows for the entrants to make their own decision about how heavily they want to rely on hard or soft scores in some sort of potential way.  That decision is not a no-brainer decision and is a matter that I personally get some amount of satisfaction and enjoyment trying to solve when I plan for an event.

But i'm ok with that, because having at least one tournament like this means variety on the larger scale of the scene, if not in the smaller scale of the armies showing up, if you get my drift.

Hey, there's a valid argument for "screw magic, I'll just take some defense and spend the rest of the points on troops/fighty characters/etc"... and for most army books, there's a hard choice to made between the various things you can spend points on.

Hard caps do discourage taking suboptimal units, but unconventional list design isn't necessarily bad.

I don't expect much less diversity than usual. Well, maybe from some books. But a lot of them do have plenty of options to pick from.