Advice on my 1850 point SM army list

[Sectiplave]

Hello all,

Since getting interested in the hobby some months back now I've been toiling with an army list, I was initially going to go for Vulkan He'Stan Salamander SM army and stock up on some flamers and thunder hammer terminators etc.

However I've decided to go for something a little more interesting for myself, this is still kinda rough in terms of wargear, but I'm going to stick with the basic unit composition.

The other thing I was thinking was to grab a cannoness at a later date so I can switch and match the sisters HQ side of things for more faith points if I find I like acts of faith more than more psyker power. But I've also been given a friendly heads up that including Vulkan with witch hunters would be about as cheesy as it comes.

My goal for my first army is to have the models I would like as well as have a compedative army that I could enter in non cheesy games and not get ripped like wet paper.

Just to clarify for those who may not be familiar with the Witch Hunter codex, if they are joining an SM or IG army, you are allowed up to 1 HQ, 2 troop, 1 fast attack choices to include from the witch hunters, NO heavy support maybe chosen I would have liked a few penitent engines

Let me know what you all think.

HEADQUARTERS 2/2

1 SM Librarian = 180
- Epistolary +50
- Terminator armour + storm bolter +30

1 Inquisitor Lord = 204
- Stormbolter +10
- Close combat weapon +1
- Psycannon bolts +10
- His will be done +15
- Scourging +20
- 1acolyte +8
- 1Sage +10
- 1Crusader +20
- 1Familiar +6
- 1Penitent +7
- 1Chururgeon +12
- Rhino +50
-- +5 dozer blade

TROOP 3/6;

10 tactical SM = 210
- add 5 troops +80
- Flamer -free
- missile launcher -free
- Rhino +35
- Dozer blade +5

5 Scout SM = 90
- snipers -free
- camo cloak +15 (for all 5 units)

12 Battle Sister Squad = 212
- upgrade to Veteran Superior +14
  -- Storm bolter +10
- priest +40
- Meltagun +10
- Heavy Flamer +12
- Purity Seals +5

ELITE 3/3;

5 Terminator squad = 230
- 1 assault cannon +30

1 Dreadnought = 115
- Multi-Melta -free
- Power fist with flamer +10

6 Arco-Flagellants = 210

FAST ATTACK 1/3;

6 Seraphim squad = 172
- upgrade to Veteran Superior +10
   -- Master crafted power weapon +25
- Simulacrum Imperialis -free

HEAVY SUPPORT 1/3;

1 Land raider redeemer = 240

TOTAL = 1843

Faith points = 2

P.S The SM chapter are still going to be Salamanders and the Sisters are very likely going to be order of the rose I think ( red armour ) and I'll very likely be putting them onto iron halo bases as they have too much potiential to look awesome to resist.

[Lezle]

Oh, come on! You have to chuck He'Stan in there! This army is crying :'( out for his impressively long beard of re-roll goodness!

I haven't commanded Penitent Engines, but I've fac'd them. They tend to wilt and die rather easily I'm afraid... well for my liking anyway. Cool for theme though.

Can you fit in the super flamer sheilas? Can't recall there names... Ummm... they can have about four or five flamers in a squad. He'Stan and them!

Looking pretty groovy though for sure.

Lezle

[daemion]

Hell man. Its 40gay. Screw everyone else. Take the cheesey bugga that gives you flamer and melta re rolls. Who cares what they think. Go on, You know you want to.

[Lazarus]

Only issue i can see with this list is lack of combat, there is not much in that list that you would run into combat, marines are 50/50 scouts a no go they sniping, same with the sister squad not that good in combat, the only one i would worry about is the Seraphim squad but you will have to be good with them to keep them alive before they do anything.

Termys and dreads are to slow, only good for support with out drop pods, but from what i would say it is a bit of a basic list a bit of everything and no kick, i could not see a theme or plan of attack with this army its to slow to flank or pounce on anyone. its the normal sit and shoot and maybe a bit of combat if needed.

Sorry to say this but the n00b list. Also get ready to be hated as mixing marines with sisters is not a common thing i dont care at all but there is alot of people around who with go cheese you just dont do that.

[Vaul]

For combat he's got the arco flaggellants, and his characters aren't bad in combat.  Nothing noob about this list - mixing marines with sisters is hardly cheese if he dropped vulkan... why don't you actually post reasons why you think that?

[Lazarus]

Well Vaul you just stated it would not be cheese is he dropped Vulkan.

I just think mixing imperial with SM is wrong, imperial army's do that thing but marine are meant to be all hight and mighty why would they ask for help from imperial forces.

I am not saying there is no combat just lack of it if he was going to charge an army, what i was explaing is that how will it be used i can just see that list sitting back shooting and then using the little charge he has to counter charge.

I though i did explane what i though, from me playing marines for 15 years i see this list as basic due to there is no plan of attack with marines you can focus all over the show you need to focus on one thing shooting/combat/support and counter charge.

With a fast army vs this list he would get over run by fast units and there is little to stop the flow on effect after the first wave, vs a tank army only little anti tank, destroy a few key units and he will find it hard to take out a few tanks.

For all the people who think marines are strong and all mighty this is false the units cost alot limited to how fast they can be and limited in combat, there are many other army's out there what walk over marine with out trying. in 2days world only have 30+ men wont save you as a mob of orks can walk over 10 marines and only cost half the points.

But hay he was after input i gave mine, and the people who know me know i make good marine armys and they are hard to vs.

[Sectiplave]

Yeah I figure the army was going to be quite slow, that's why the termies and librarian would be in the land raider, the tac marines and inquisitor inside rhino's. and the other foot soldiers would have to follow up from behind.

I tend to agree with you, my close combat and anti-vehicle isn't all that strong. If I went up against a vehicle heavy army I would really have some troubles, and same story with going up against Tyranids or the Orks, would be overwhelmed and out classed in close combat.

Adding Vulkan and loads of flamers/meltas would earn me 0 in terms of competition points, adding him into a list and posting it up on most forums would get you major neg feedback.

As for Witch Hunters + Space Marines, yeah some fluff followers might ask me what the story is there, but in fact my idea is that the SM haven't asked for Inquistion help, more like they are keeping an eye on the pskyer Librarian. Sure Salamanders have been loyal since the start, but who is to say that can't change......

[Lazarus]

You just need to remmber most guys who play 40k are not fair in how they make there army's they are always going for the win not a good fun hard game.

And people who do want to make a blanced list lose out due to they dont have the power to take out there army's. i was once like this and i kicked everyones ass but they all hated me if some people remmber my blood angels they will know.

If you are going for comp you will fail. you are heavy on eletes and heavy and HQ.

If you are after a good comp army that people will like. You can i would say max 1 HQ and no more than 200 points on that one guy. Atleast 4 full troop choices a good 45% of your army on troops. around 900-1100 points. spend no more than 500 on fast and eletes. this will make a nice balanced/strong army (if you play it well) that people cant say cheese.

I ran a scout marine army in 2007 FOB that ran only a 100 point commander scouts and marines as troops and two dreds and two razor backs. With the right wargear. I had one anti tank gun week combat but numbers to back me up and came in the top 5 of the top of my head i got kick down from 3rd due to a cheese mec tau army.

A nice balanced none uber army can do very well and suprice alot of people. if you have no big ass expencive unti to go for they have to think about what to fight.

Battle cry this year i took 40 marines 10 jumpers and 5 termys and 1 pred and 4 rhinos and calger. Won best comp.

Came like i think 9th over all something like that. and i had not even play 5th ed and 40k for a year. people found them hard to kill and there was just basic marines with numbers. Dont always go for the best as if you put 10 marines vs a 300 point HQ the HQ will likly die.

[Simon]

comp wise, i will give this list well above average score.

i like the idea of mixing sisters with marines.

personally i think it is a interesting, yet challenging list to use.

a bit of units swapping can make this list a bit harder.

[Sectiplave]

Cheers for the feedback.

I'll see if I can play around with the list and put some more strength into anti-vehicle and close combat, I could possible drop the Dreadnought and put in something else, I only really included him as he came with AOBR

I think the best thing to do from here is get the basic models I'm after and play a few games and see where things need to be tweaked, I'm still pretty newbie in terms of game play so I'll find it hard to fine tune and make the list harder just yet.

Thanks.

[Lazarus]

Best way to work out comp is this

hq=10%
Troops=50%

Eletes/fast/heavy no more than 20% each but no more than 40% overall.

This is how the juged comp about 2 years ago. And gernraly how i base my non cheese armys.

Now it is based on what armys are there on the day.

you list would get a 3 out of 5. maybe a 4 depending on the armys on the day.

At the end of the day its up to you on what you do, if you dont care on what people think build it how you want it and how you want to play what works for me and other might not work for you. At the end of the day there are no rules on how to make an army as long as there is 1 hq and 2 troop you can do what you want going from the rule book.

The only question i would ask is,

Are you biuld a tornement army or just a club army?

If its tornements you want to build the army as close to the specs that GW wright for the GT tornys and follow them to the letter to get max comp scores.

If its for club and frends games no boundrys do what you want. 

[Simon]

Best way to work out comp is this

hq=10%
Troops=50%

Eletes/fast/heavy no more than 20% each but no more than 40% overall.

hello??
2 big mek with force field
3 units of lootas
6 units of 30 strong ork boyz with nobz w/ power klaws
as many kans as u can fit

non cheesy??? i don't think so.

there are normal troops, but there are freakin awesome troops.

[pete dunn]

Most 40k tournies now use panel comp.....lists are generally assessed on the relative strength of the list (though some include, misguidedly IMO, a theme component).

It's a long will since I have seen any 40k tournament run comp based on mathematical %s.

Including SoB (access to cheaper flamers and melta guns) in a SM list which includes the undercosted Vulkan is going to flag a list for closer inspection by most people marking comp. The rest of the list may be marshmellow but I'd say that combination isn't going to win many friends.

Pete

[Lazarus]

Best way to work out comp is this

hq=10%
Troops=50%

Eletes/fast/heavy no more than 20% each but no more than 40% overall.

hello??
2 big mek with force field
3 units of lootas
6 units of 30 strong ork boyz with nobz w/ power klaws
as many kans as u can fit

non cheesy??? i don't think so.

there are normal troops, but there are freakin awesome troops.

Simon i would say this is, there is just no way 40 marines vs 180+ orks is fair.

They may get kills instant with marine guns but its just shere f**ing numbers. kill 20 still more coming. 30 orks on charge is like 90 attacks so something that will kill a squad on just numbers.

Marine are diffrent than orks they cost points if he was making an ork army i might have diffrent comments.

[Sectiplave]

Ok, I've tried to make the list better able to deal with close combat by beefing the inquisitors retinue for close combat. It's still probably a little spread too thin between anti-vehicle, shooting and assault, but my battle tactic ideally would be to close to mid-range, try to bring down the numbers with weapons fire and then get into some assault. This isn't going to work well against a speed army I guess though, and if someone is vehicle heavy I'm going to have troubles, but not sure what to change there.

To answer Laz. question, this is going to be primarily a club/friendly army but at a later stage when I have more game experience enter competitions, so really it's a casual army I guess.

HEADQUARTERS 2/2

(1) SM Librarian = 180
- Epistolary +50
- Terminator armour + Storm bolter +30

(9) Inquisitor Lord = 262
- Bolt pistol +1
- Master-crafted Power weapon +25
- Scourging +20
- Word of the Emperor +10
- 2 acolytes +16
--> 2xmancatcher +10
- 1 Sage +10
- 2 Warriors +20
--> upgrade to crusader +10
--> Combat serv. with power fist +15
- 1 Familiar +6
- 1 Penitent +7
- 1 Chururgeon +12
- Rhino +50
--> +5 dozer blade

TROOP 3/6;

(10) tactical SM = 205
- Sgt. chainsword / boltpistol -free
- add 5 troops +80
- Flamer -free
- missile launcher -free
- Rhino +35

(5) Scout SM = 100
- snipers -free
- Missle launcher +10
- camo cloak +15 (for all 5 units)

(11) Battle Sister Squad (10 sisters) = 190
- Upgrade to Veteran Superior +14
--> Power weapon / Bolt pistol +10
- Add priest +40
- Meltagun +10
- Flamer +6

ELITE 3/3;

(5) Terminator squad = 230
- 1 assault cannon +30

(1) Dreadnought = 115
- Powerfist w.flamer +10

(5) Arco-Flagellants = 175

FAST ATTACK 1/3;

(6) Seraphim squad = 152
- upgrade to Veteran Superior +10
--> Power Weapon +10
- Simulacrum Imperialis -free

HEAVY SUPPORT 1/3;

1 Land raider redeemer = 240

TOTAL = 1849
Faith points = 2

[Simon]

if u r aiming to build a good tournament list, it is good idea to have a bit of everything spread between anti-vehicle, shooting and assault. I don't see anything wrong with that.

if u go hard out with anti-tank, then u will have problems against a horde army such as tyranids or orks.
if u go for anti-infanty build then u will have problems with tank army such as all mounted devilfish/hammerhead tau army or IG tanks army..

Personally, i think your army is softer than standard marine list or a standard sister list, but it should be fun to play against.

[Lazarus]

I will have to give it a game and see how it goes.

I think my scout will be a bit fast for it though, could give it a go if not i got the rhino rush RT marines.  Both 1850

[Sectiplave]

Cool,

I'll be making a large order from Maelstrom this week to get most of the models I need, hopefully will be able to come into the club for a few games at some point soon, the paint job is going to take me some time though

[Simon]

where about do u live? so i can pick up the giant squig ? u going to drop off to me at city guard?

do u have a table? if u do, it is probably better if u test play your list before u go and buy models.

[Big D]

In the words of the almighty guru (AKA Mark Buttle): Screw comp.

The few points you drop for bad comp don't outweigh the massive battle points boost you can get by eating everyone in 3 turns with the "Uber-list from hell".

Comp is a horribly subjective thing, usually influenced by a particular judge/players bias for/against a particular army.

Now that the rants out of the way:

My Tau would eat that army for breakfast. It doesn't have the basic numbers for a decent gunline and doesn't have the speed or strike power needed to be an assault army. The two assault units (and i use the term loosely in relation to the seraphim) will always find themselves out on a limb with very little support, which allows your opponent to concentrate fire on them first before mopping up the static elements in the rear. Assuming your opponent doesn't just ignore the rear elements and snatch the objectives instead.

[Sectiplave]

Yeah I don't have much illusion about beating a long range shooting army like Tau or a speedy Ork army, I would be wiped out by the fifth turn.

In terms of making a competition army, I think I will wait for the Vulkan He'Stan model to be released and design a Salamander only army around making a hard list.

I think this list should be fun to start with and to learn the game with, I also think it would be entertaining for guys on the other side of the table to fight. I would likely have to ask for some people to soften their lists if possible when matching up as I can see armies that would tear me up.

[daemion]

I do like that 2nd list better than the first. I was always taught by mates when making army lists that your initial gut feeling and what you like in a force is generally what you go back to with slight tweeks. Looking good....

[Sectiplave]

Okay I've played a few small games with them, and I'm thinking about changing my list to give myself more flexibility, here is my latest attempt.

It's almost mechanized I think the term is? I'll end up with 5 tanks and a higher body count than before, hopefully this will give more defense against horde and fast armies compared to my older list, my inquisitor lord has changed from being a melee squad to a firing squad. The librarian will be attached to the terminators and will be garrisoned inside the land-raider.

I think this should be moving away from being a softer list toward the harder side, let me know what ya'll think.


HEAD-QUARTERS 2/2

(1) Space Marine Librarian = 180
- Epistolary +50
- Terminator armour + Storm bolter +30

(7) Inquisitor Lord = 183
- Plasma pistol & Power Weapon +25
- Scourging & Word of the Emperor +30
- Acolyte with mancatcher +13
- Sage +10
- Gun servitor with heavy multi-melta +35
- Familiar +6
- Penitent +7
- Chururgeon +12

TROOP 3/6

(10) Tactical Space Marines = 205
- Sgt. chainsword / boltpistol -free
- Flamer -free
- missile launcher -free
- Rhino +35

(5) Scout Space Marines = 100
- snipers -free
- Missle launcher +10
- camo cloak +15 (for all 5 units)

(10) Battle Sister Squad = 200
- Veteran Superior with Power weapon / Bolt pistol +24
- Meltagun +10
- Flamer +6
- Rhino +50

ELITE 3/3

(5) Terminator Squad = 230
- 1 assault cannon +30

(1) Dreadnought = 115
- Powerfist w.flamer +10

(9) Celestian Squad = 243
- Sister superior with bolt pistol & close combat weapon +10
- Flamer +6
- Imagifier +20
- Attached Priest +40
- Rhino +50

FAST ATTACK 1/3

(5)Dominion Squad = 152
- Upgrade to Veteran Superior +14
- 2x Flamers +18
- Meltagun +15
- Rhino (manditory) +50

HEAVY SUPPORT 1/3

1 Land Raider Redeemer = 240

TOTAL = 1848
Faith points = 3

[NeckFace]

good to see near everything is mounted, that'll up your game in terms of getting all those short-mid range special weapons into play.

that begs the question as to what your inquisitor is going to do.  you can rely on the scouts to hang out and be a thorn in your opponents side while he has battle sisters and termies in a redeemer bearing down on him, but does this mean the inq hangs back by his lonesome?  the longest ranged weapon in the squad looks to be the multimelta and you can't really rely it to do all that much (except perhaps present your opponent with area denial; even if its just one MM, no one wants to get close to that shizz).

but perhaps you had the idea of teaming them up with the dread in that case?  that will further develop the threat value of that unit in terms of sitting on an objective and holding it, and gives you a nice counter-charge/tarpitting unit, should CC units make a break for the inq and his body guard.

alternatively, have you considered putting the dread into a drop pod?  its a popular tactic, and usually means the loss of the dread, but you can use it to snipe out particularly nasty vehicles (i'm assuming he's rocking an MM too), or tie up a unit with the heavy flamer, and then in CC if it can make it the following turn.

[Ry.S]

You have to little troops...

25 models in troops and 10 of them are T3! remember 2 of 3 games will be objective based so i think you find it hard to last the distance vs most army's. To many toys.

[NeckFace]

i dunno man, if those scouts stay hidden on an objective and go to ground when necessary i think you  can count on them to hold the home-town objective solo.

that leaves a fair amount of guys surging forward to either take the objectives or contest them.

so long as you hold or contest everything on the board you can't lose

[Sectiplave]

Yeah the dread is packing a Multi-Melta, I was thinking of having him near the inquistor lord if someone was wanting to take them in close combat, also to try ward off assaults on the inquisitor lord, word of the emperor means all units attempting to assault him must make successful leadership tests first, helpful but nothing I could rely on. Out of this list, the lord and his retinue are the most likely to get changed around, just soo many combinations of henchmen.

I was tempted to add another 10 man squad of tac. marines in a rhino but instead went with the Celestian squad, I suppose I could drop them for another rhino filled with tac. marines and add a drop pod to the dreadnaught. I think the Celestians will be quite handy in close combat however with the priest as they hit on a 3+ regardless of weapon skills and get to re-roll any misses on an assault due to the priest.

[NeckFace]

well if you're going to use them as a CC squad, they may be better suited riding in the redeemer.  that and you'll want to give them some power weapons or fists, if they have the option (i guess the preist comes with an eviscerator?)

actually, what's the attraction of the inquisitor there?  fluffwise, it makes heaps of sense seeing he'd be requisitioning the use of the sisters and marines for whatever purpose he has, but games-wise wouldn't be more efficient to run with a canoness and body guard to try and get more faith points on the table?

[Sectiplave]

Yeah it would make more sense to switch the inquisitor for a cannoness to boost faith points.

He was in there to start with for fluff reasons, and there are a few models in there of course simply because I like them too much to go without them, these are the inqusitor, the librarian, the terminators, the redeemer and the dreadnought. I'm trying to find a balance between playing with the models I want and not being non-compedative, this is turning out alot harder than I expected

I was thinking of altering the inquistor something like this; (scourging has 18" range so the plasma pistol was kinda defunct)

(7) Inquisitor Lord +45 = 186
- bolt pistol & Power Weapon +16
- Scourging & Word of the Emperor +30
- Acolyte with bolter +10
- Sage +10
- Gun servitor with multi-melta +35
- Gun servitor with heavy-bolter +25
- Familiar +6

I think this puts him better into the role I'm thinking of where he is in the back lines offering fire support.

In terms of the Celestian squad, I'm still tossing up between them and a cheaper and likely more reliable terminator assault squad, this would give me more points to possibly add a plasma cannon to the inquistor squad virtually making them heavy support.

[NeckFace]

the one time i faced sisters, that's how the guy ran his inq - three heavy bolters and a plasma cannon for good measure.

hmmm , i need to read up on the rules for inqs.  if he can maybe give him a psycannon to add extra shots for the unit to pump out.

this is going to be a pretty patchy looking army on the table top, but i tell you what - i'm starting to like the idea of mixing the different armies of the imperium together like this.  really, this is how they fight a lot of the time anyways in the fluff