Natcon Comp - Judge vs Player

[Dirty_Vod]

i'm lucky in that I have a number of other armies I'm playing with but if I only owned VCs or Daemons and I had made concessions in my list then I'd be feeling more than a little peeved.

Like me you mean? 

I've pretty much taken one of 2 views on the tier based comp with my armies

1 - I've had my current daemon army since the days of Hordes of chaos (when they were shite) and they cost me over $1000 so I'll take what I damn-well like thank you very much, and just cop whatever comp score I get on the chin.

or
2 - I stop playing warhammer.

guess which one I've picked so far 

[Doug]

[Put simply Army Books for the same race get stronger each time they are released (codex creep as GW tries to encourage sales). Therefore why would you assume that a book stays at the same tier when it's released given that observation

We already know that tiering armies correctly at the time of the event in question is required.  Is this your objection to tiercomp?

[pete dunn]

One of them, yes

[Fujin]

I wonder if it's even possible to step back from tiered panel-judged comp at this point. If you asked a judge to rate an army on a scale of 1-5 or 1-10 what are the chances they won't bust Daemons/VCs down straight away due to the strength of the army book? Even if the lists are compared across armies to all the other lists in a given tournament wouldn't most judges still say "it's Daemons, ergo even a soft Daemon list is stilll harder than an old army book" (the "tiers without tiers" approach)?

[Vaul]

While on the surface of it 3 flying combat Vamps "looks" nasty they also are very constrained in that the guys on hellsteeds can't join units so they can be "sniped" by people with access to the appropriate level of magic/shooting.  They also have to take all of the negative effects of losing combat rather than being able to offload those to a unit, so they crumble fast if things go wrong in a combat.

One ironic thing is that the player in question didn't even know about that.  Neither did I, running into him in the tournament for my first ever game against VC's.  It was quite a surprise having this pointed out to me just last weekend.  He spent much of the game hiding his vamps in skeleton blocks

[Dirty_Vod]

you see if hiding those flying vamps in units was legal then I definitely would have given the list a -3 and close to a veto (taking ghouls with ghoul-kin would have assured the veto).

Just shows that comp judges need to be familiar with both the rules and the individual army books...

[Glenn Patel]

Well... apparently the *judges* were familiar with the army books... *shakes head*

Seriously, we need a campaign to make people aware of that rule.

[Simon]

Like Dave I've built a VC army and I am no nearer to understanding the comp requirements of the list. I avoided what I thought were the no-nos (regen banner, WS hat, Black Knight bunker, hi number of PD, twin of the same rare) and when I posted my list was told it was still -1 on Tier. I saw Trent Dennison take a weaker VC army to the Masters and still get bottom 3 in Comp. As a result I can see why people are not taking the Tier 1 armies to tournaments as they seem to be damned no matter what they do.

Exactly, daemon and VC are so god damn damned.

if I only owned VCs or Daemons and I had made concessions in my list then I'd be feeling more than a little peeved.

soooo true.

1 - I've had my current daemon army since the days of Hordes of chaos (when they were shite) and they cost me over $1000 so I'll take what I damn-well like thank you very much, and just cop whatever comp score I get on the chin.

I got 10000 points of daemon, kept in my gaming cases for the past 8-9 years becuase they were so shity, they werewaiting for the new army book to come out, and now it is out and they are freakin damned.

[The Ox]

Sure, none of the T1 lists were being run by "name" generals [/quote]

Steady on fella, just cause someone maximises evey tourney army they take  doesn't make them a "name" general, it makes them a "name" list builder.

[Dirty_Vod]

Calm down Rob 

haven't you heard that it's not the list that wins a tourney it's the general   

[The Ox]

Calm down Rob 

haven't you heard that it's not the list that wins a tourney it's the general   

Scroll Tui ad 

Obviouslythere are exceptions such as Reid recent wood and dark elf excursions with other peoples armies... big ups there I reckon


Is four warrior preists over the top on comp???

[Antony]

Only if one if is on a WAlter and it is accompanied by a STank.

[Vaul]

Is there anything preventing the eggheads over at altdorf from coming up with a steam tank & war altar hybrid?  Just weld the big griffon on top of the tank, and have the arch lector pop the hatch every so often to cast spells.  Although, I guess the tank itself does scramble spell effects - that's probably why.  Still...

[Fujin]

I like where this is headed...

How about a flying Steam Tank Altar? Mean.

[Glenn Patel]

Oooh... armoured popemobile...

I like.

[Doug]

How about a flying Steam Tank Altar? Mean.

Yeah, and it could get to the stage where it flies by sucking up PD.  Maybe we could make it ethereal too?  Wait, this is starting to sound familiar...

[Vaul]

Yeah but a black coach doesn't have a freakin' cannon.

[Glenn Patel]

IMO the cannon is the least important part. Ramming speed is much nastier.

[Vaul]

Least important part in battle, most important part as far as style is concerned.  It's a cannon.  End of story.

[Antony]

Trust me, from personal experience, the cannon should only be fired in dire emergency. Even one misire is probably going to cause two wounds to your STank and hence ruin it for the rest of the game.

A Vaul has correctly observed, the cannon is for show only.

[Vaul]

And what a fine show it is indeed.  Nothing to celebrate a victorious day on the field of warhammer like a salute care of the artillery.

[Glenn Patel]

Yep. 300 point cannon? Nay.

Best Chariot ever? Aye.

[Fujin]

Now we're talkin! Let's make the Stank an upgrade for characters! Reckon I'd put my BSB in a Stank!

[dave grant]

While on the surface of it 3 flying combat Vamps "looks" nasty they also are very constrained in that the guys on hellsteeds can't join units so they can be "sniped" by people with access to the appropriate level of magic/shooting.

Indeed, I was all set to to give the list -2/-3 until I realised it was a Hellsteed, rather than nightmare.

Not being able to joing units for the VC lord (and one other vamp) is such a huge liability I went for a '0' overall.

IF the player in question was joining units, then he is a naughty boy - and needs to read his book better.