Vaul's High Elves: Double Noble Proposal

[Vaul]

Well, with Maelstrom's easter weekend %15 sale, I decided to order some elves.  My order so far only has 5 dragon princes, 10 white lions including command, a box of 16 archers, and a repeater.  So it's a bit too late to go back on that stuff.  I've also picked up 2 metal archers and a sorceress from a different model range while I was at NATCON.  Here's a list I am thinking about going for, and it is a bit unusual - please give me some feedback and especially thoughts on how this might rate in terms of army composition:

135 - lvl2 Mage
40  - Ring of Fury
10  - Silver Wand

135 - lvl2 Mage
30  - Seerstaff
20  - Power Stone

85  - Noble
28  - Lance, dragon armour, shield, Barded Steed
45  - Radiant Gem of Hoeth   - 158

85  - Noble
28  - Lance, dragon armour, shield, Barded Steed
25  - BSB
80  - Battle Banner      - 218

150 - 5x Dragon Princes
50  - Full Command     
10  - Gem of Courage (drakemaster item)
15  - Banner of Elyrion   - 215

150 - 5x Dragon Princes
50  - Full Command
20  - War Banner
25  - Helm of Fortune (drakemaster item) - 270

225 - 15x White Lions
30  - Full Command
50  - Banner of Sorcery
25  - The Skeinsliver     - 330

85  - 1x Tiranoc Chariot

110 - 10 Archers

110 - 10 Archers

300 - 3x RBT

50  - Eagle

2226

So, no prince, no dragons, no archmage, no book of hoeth, in fact no lord level character at all.  It does however have the battle banner and banner of sorcery, so those are some staple high elf choices.  5 Dispel dice, no scroll.  Maybe swap the power stone for a scroll... but with elf +1 dispel attempt I might be able to get away with no scroll.  Only having level 2's means 3 dice max to cast, and having no power stone would mean that I still couldn't get away with using the seerstaff to pick a really nasty big magic spell to attempt whenever it would be most effective.

The list has very few deployments so the strategy is to try and get +2 to the first turn roll with that and the skeinsliver.  Then it's a matter of hitting home with my tooled up 2x hammer units.  Drakemaster champ has the helm so that if necessary he can accept a suicidal challenge and block much of the overkill thanks to his re-rollable 1+ save.

Radient gem of hoeth is an unusual one, but I love his options.  Shield of saphery on his dragon princes, portent of phar, even the first spell on the lore of metal to snipe a chaos knights unit you are planning on going toe to toe with.  Or first spell on light when you are standing off against daemons and undead.  But most importantly, his dispel dice is handy when i'm not running an archmage.

Would people have fun playing this list?  Would I get hammered if I was using it?  Any ideas on spending/shuffling the remaining 24 points?

[wouster7]

Nice alt list to most I've seen Luke.
You may want to give your noble SOM as you will be recieving charges. Trust me DP's are not much better then SH's with ST 3 attacks against T4 or higher. The 3x Str5 ASF has saved me in many a jam.
I always refrain from taking too many unit champs. which will free up pts for more fig's. Your WL's could do with the 6 or 7 wide config. I find maximising attacks on a frag t3 unit is always the go.
You will def need at least 1 scroll. 5 dd may not be enough against magic heavy armies. Against your TK's 5DD would get owned.

I have extra DP's, 6ed RBT's and of course SH's if you are wanting to trade.
 
 

[Vaul]

I would be keen on the dragon princes if they are unpainted.  And to be honest, I think this list would thrash my tomb kings list... because I know how the tomb kings list works.  No scroll needed, the TK only have magic moves, and since the SSC can't hurt the dragon princes, their only option is a direct charge with the chariots... and that isn't gonna beat the battle banner.

[Antony]

Luke,
Its a neet idea but...
...Your DP units are too small if you want FC. Against warmachines etc you will need your characters to have a look out sir roll, and 4 RnF and a champ is not enough,
...and...
...I don't rate 3 RBTs. They are good at smashing small units up, but not a useful as eagles. Four eagles is harder/cheesier than 4 RBTs. You will never regret having eagles as march blockers diverters and general pains in the ass.

I'd suggest dropping a RBT, adding and eagle and pimping your DP to 6 strong.

Another clever/surpring thing to do is loose the barding from your BSB. 18" charge, +2-7 CR and 3 str 6 attacks is very intimidating. My DE BSB with standard of +d3 CR is gold

[Vaul]

Good ideas, thanks for the contributions, I will consider them.  Like them a lot.

[Glenn Patel]

Well, I still have the prize boxes from BattleCry unopened... that's a noble box and a chariot box (because while 5 chariots seemed like a cute idea? Honestly, it's going overboard. )

[Vaul]

I will buy them from you if you can beat discount mail order prices

[wouster7]

Another clever/surpring thing to do is loose the barding from your BSB. 18" charge, +2-7 CR and 3 str 6 attacks is very intimidating. My DE BSB with standard of +d3 CR is gold

Thats awesome Anthony. I will def have to try tis out. You surely is da Gouda master!

[Glenn Patel]

...what ARE discount mail order prices? (I'm probably happy to beat them, just 'cause I want to be on good terms with my nearest City Guardsman )

[Vaul]

They work out to be just under $30 each including postage at the moment, due to the easter special happening.  So they aren't even out of the box?  I'll give you $25 for each box?

[Glenn Patel]

They are still in the boxes, I think still shrinkwrapped. Deal. Good luck with them.

[Fubar]

More Pointy ears for me to run over..........

[Gratnuk Ironfist]

More Pointy ears for me to run over..........

If only they would stop running all over the place. Honestly can't elves be decent and just run away in a straight line like everybody else.

[Simon]

They work out to be just under $30 each including postage at the moment, due to the easter special happening.  So they aren't even out of the box?  I'll give you $25 for each box?

can i buy those lions in the chariot box off u?

[Vaul]

Yes!  In fact i've been thinking about buying your tomb kings terrain.  We might be able to cut a deal.  Although, I have so much to buy off various people, it may have to wait.  But you can have the lions asap.

[Philfy]

So, no prince, no dragons, no archmage, no book of hoeth, in fact no lord level character at all.  It does however have the battle banner and banner of sorcery, so those are some staple high elf choices.  5 Dispel dice, no scroll.  Maybe swap the power stone for a scroll... but with elf +1 dispel attempt I might be able to get away with no scroll.  Only having level 2's means 3 dice max to cast, and having no power stone would mean that I still couldn't get away with using the seerstaff to pick a really nasty big magic spell to attempt whenever it would be most effective.

The list has very few deployments so the strategy is to try and get +2 to the first turn roll with that and the skeinsliver.  Then it's a matter of hitting home with my tooled up 2x hammer units.  Drakemaster champ has the helm so that if necessary he can accept a suicidal challenge and block much of the overkill thanks to his re-rollable 1+ save.

Radient gem of hoeth is an unusual one, but I love his options.  Shield of saphery on his dragon princes, portent of phar, even the first spell on the lore of metal to snipe a chaos knights unit you are planning on going toe to toe with.  Or first spell on light when you are standing off against daemons and undead.  But most importantly, his dispel dice is handy when i'm not running an archmage.

Would people have fun playing this list?  Would I get hammered if I was using it?  Any ideas on spending/shuffling the remaining 24 points?

This the fire-side chat?

You don't need an archmage - and most people tend not to throw 4+ dice at too many spells.

You are sitting on an incredibly effective magic phase.  3 casters with 8-10 PD and a bound spell that is better than most. Particularly at sucking out dispel dice.  AND you have a power stone on top of that?

Shooting also is extremely effective - 3x RBT's will get you comp hit.  With 20 archers as well, and magic to back it up.  Alongside an Eagle, Chariot and some fast moving heavy cav.

And Combat is nothing to sneeze at either...  Particularly with the cheese banner of d6 combat res.

You may not have a Lord level character, but this isn't necessarily a concession when you are taking 4 heroes...  many HE lists only run with a Lord and 2 heroes anyway.

Remember these are Elves, not TK's. 

Drop the Battle Banner, one of the RBT's, and keep either the Gem of Hoeth & Ring of Fury or the Banner of Sorcery.  One of them should go.

Gem of Courage is handy on a BSB...  Dragonhorn is a MUST in an elf army IMO so look at adding that in somewhere.

I'm also not convinced of the usefulness of the Ellyrian Banner.  The trick to winning combats is combo charges.  And one unit of DP's charging through a wood or whatever just isn't going to do it.  Particularly as you can't back it up with the chariot due to terrain, nor the 2nd unit of DP's due to unit frontage.

You have the WL's to clear out any pesky woods...  so you really don't need the Ellyrian Banner in that regard either.


Overall I'd suggest winnowing the "toys" out to something a little more efficient and getting a few more feet on the table.  With no Dragon you are going to need at least one more unit with ranks.  At present the list appears to be trying to sit and shoot/magic as well as be tactically offensive through fast moving troops....  which is doable with HE's...  but be a little more subtle and a bit less overkill with it.  As it is you appear to be picking the best of whats available with very few concessions.

Cheers - and no I'm not going to comment on every HE list you do 

[Vaul]

Well it was nice of you to descend from the white tower of hoeth to grace us with your arcane understanding of the untainted elven kindred!  What i'm trying to achieve is a list that is at least slightly different from what other people take, in an effort to satisfy my need to be unique... I guess I was hoping for a little bit of a soft score too, but you're quite right, It wouldn't be huge with this one!  Keep the advice coming though.  I do actually appreciate it.

[Philfy]

Hmm  if difference is what you are after..  leave the seerstaff and Ring of Fury at home...  there are a few nice alternatives to those...

You are likely to run into the same issue I do with HE's...  freeing up 100 - 150 pts by dropping something doesn't give you enough points for anything much.

Taking the 3x RBT's you might get away with if you drop the eagle.  Or you might consider swapping the 3rd RBT for a second Chariot.

Bascially at the end of the day I'd suggest at least toning your magic & items down a bit.  That will net you a better comp score across the board - from judges at least.

[Vaul]

not too many people take two units of dragon princes, one unit of white lions, and zero spearelves or swordsmasters, so that'll probably do as far as being different.  As for the rest of the list I don't mind being sensible about it.  As for the 2x nobles, 2x mages - that's something I will play alongside other lists, most of which will involve an archmage.  It'll be a matter of deciding what works best for me.  I will likely be going with 2x RBT and 2x Eagles though, i've heard enough arguments from enough sources to convince me that this is pretty staple, the same way that 2x scorpions is optimal in a TK list for 2250 led by a King.  It's just one of those things.

[Philfy]

not too many people take two units of dragon princes,

Thats because:

1.  They are viewed a comp hit.
2.  They are very much a points sink... 

Not sure I would compare taking 2x RBT's + 2 Eagles with taking 2x Scorpions...  I believe 2 scorpions to be more effective on the whole...  they just don't seem to be used in tandem...  which is a player mistake not a list one.  Thats just my opinion though 

[Simon]

Cheesy check:

1. 3 boltthrowers, Cheese
2. minimum core, limited infantry, and those choices taken are optimal, Cheese
3. 8-10 PDs with 1 bound, Cheese

overall, it is a hard list.

I really think u should consider playing in CheesyCon becuase both your tomb king and your high elves list can do very well at it.

[Vaul]

My high elf army physically consists of one mage and two archers right now.  As for the tomb kings, I would prefer to switch my list around.  It could be tougher.  But to be honest, I like practicing lists that I intend to enter into tournaments, so cheesycon is out.  Maybe next time around!

[Simon]

As for the tomb kings, I would prefer to switch my list around.  It could be tougher.

Your tomb king list is already VERY tough, in fact, there is not much u can do to make it any tougher, my point is, your tomb king is so cheesy, u can just use it in CheesyCon without the need to switch your list around.

[Vaul]

If it's so cheesy, why did it get such an average score for NATCON?  The judges didn't veto it or consider it over the top.  The fact is, it could benefit from some switcharounds.  I would drop the 10 archers and 20 skeletons with handweapons & shields, and take more chariots.  I could take the icon of rakaph on the tomb guard.  The king would be better in combat with the collar of shapesh instead of the cloak.  In some situations, the carrion aren't going to be as useful as Ushabti.  The casket is strong, but it can be a real liability.  Good players know how to minimize its effects.  I think it is a strong list, stronger than most people's lists, but it's not 100% cheese.

[Philfy]

2. minimum core, limited infantry, and those choices taken are optimal, Cheese

- 6th Ed opinion...  particularly with the advent of the 7th Ed army books...  anyone who mentions "minimum core" needs to bring themselves out of the past...  seriously. 

If it's so cheesy, why did it get such an average score for NATCON?  The judges didn't veto it or consider it over the top.   I think it is a strong list, stronger than most people's lists, but it's not 100% cheese.

Mostly because 2 judges in particular saw it as "standard".  Generally the only armies that risk veto are Tier 1 armies...  this being a side effect of the "double hit" syndrome to a degree.

Regardless of opinions in regards to whatever it consitutes, an army of tiers 3-5 that is built as hard as possibly can be has little risk of being veto'd.

The general comment about both of the Natcon TK lists was that they are both hard as nails with few concessions at all made.   Particularly on their magic phases. 

Joe should have creamed his brothers list (having one of the armies that can walk all over TK's and then do it all over again), but from what I saw of the game (and I watched most of it) he played like a plucked chicken.  I know this because I beat Harry 18-2 at Call To Arms last year with a near identical list to what Joe had - and tend to rarely struggle against TK's with a HE list.

If TK's were capable of 100% cheese then they'd be sitting in Tier 1.  That they are not simply indicates that they can get away with taking all the toys... 

****

Cheesycon - Vaul..  you should have entered using a "standard" tourney list...  you don't get much better practice with an army than you do using it against "unbalanced" lists...  and the results may have suprised you. 

[Simon]

I didn't say it is 100% cheese.
I said it is cheesy enough to play in cheesyCon without the need to switch the list around.

why did it get such an average score for NATCON?  The judges didn't veto it or consider it over the top.

becuase, tomb king is tier 3, average score is 13, so the LOWEST possible army comp score for tomb king is 30 and the highest is 48.

and as Philfy mentioned above, tomb king is tier 3, so it is very unlikely the judges would veto it

[Vaul]

Further bit of High Elf help required.

I'll be starting out with a list that includes;

EITHER; Archmage + lvl2 mage + BSB OR 2x lvl2 mages + 2x Nobles, (rgoh + bob)

2x Dragon prince units
15x white lions
10x archers, 2x of these units so 20 archers total
tiranoc chariot
2x RBT
2x Eagles

After some calculations I have roughly 130 points left over.  The army strategy is to try and get the dragon princes into a good position to destroy the bulk of enemy points sink, while eliminating threats with the mages and shooting.  With this plan in mind, here are a few options i'm trying to decide between;

- smallish unit of spearelves; doesn't seem to help the plan much as they would mainly serve to help protect the mage/gun line, wouldn't be able to keep up with the dragon princes well.  However they aren't quite as juicy a target for enemy shooting, so I like that.  They are also less of a comp hit I guess

- 6 Swordmasters - again, doesn't help the plan a great deal, but I can't deny these guys are awesome quality.  Also means less painting for me to do, i'm just not sure where I would hide them from enemy shooting during the battle.  They would be an obvious target, with all my either stuff either armoured or positioned very far away from the enemy if possible.  I'm not an expert on how to use this unit yet.

- 5x Ellyrian reavers - these guys could actually assist the plan by blocking units that could flank the dragon princes, march block repositioning units, and so on.  Very tactical but also very weak to shooting once again.  Investing in bows would make them more expensive, and they ain't no dark riders when it comes to that!  Not sold, but I think they would look cool along my current lineup.

- 5/6 shadow warriors - one of my top contenders, these guys could at the very least hide and cap a table quarter, preferably in a position where they can use their longbows at very long range.  WS5 instead of BS5 really annoys me, but at least they don't cost the world.  Not sure if they work well with my plan but other people may have good ideas.

- A second chariot - this is the option i'm going with by default, and will probably lock it in as simon has so many cheap chariots available at the moment.  Having two means I could either send them both along with the hammer knights or have them back to protect the guns, OR, send one each way.  For the sake of greater tactical flexibility though, one of the above choices might be the way. 

If anyone has some concise thoughts or very good ideas that relate profoundly to the above, please post.

[Fujin]

Regardless of opinions in regards to whatever it consitutes, an army of tiers 3-5 that is built as hard as possibly can be has little risk of being veto'd.

A comment for another thread methinks but I couldn't resist - "little risk of being vetoed" is a HUGE comp issue.

@ Luke -

Cheesy check:

1. 3 boltthrowers, Cheese
2. minimum core, limited infantry, and those choices taken are optimal, Cheese
3. 8-10 PDs with 1 bound, Cheese

overall, it is a hard list.

6th/7th edition or not - Simon's right on. The guy knows his cheese

[Doug]

Generally the only armies that risk veto are Tier 1 armies...  this being a side effect of the "double hit" syndrome to a degree.

IMO the makers of teir 1 rosters are a lot more careful, and it is the mid tier armies at most risk of veto.

Back getting back to the OPs topic, that HE list may bve mildly different, but it certainly isnt a hugely novel or exciting build (which isnt a cricitism: novel and exciting often = death for expensive toughness 3 armies).

Wit that in mind, I'd be looking at the 'somthing of everything' approach, and try and shoehorn both reavers and shadow warriors into the roster (at the expensive of that second archer unit if possible).

If comp is an issue, I'd also look at replacing that second dragon princes unit for either swordmasters (for coolness factor) or silverhelms (for comp).  Neither make the army any more effective, but it starts looking less like all the 'good picks' were taken...

Imagine with that lineup and lots of practice it will still perform perfectly respectably in games.  IMO 'respectable' performance is a good aim unless you know that your mad WFB skillz will see you with a very real shot at a podium.

[Vaul]

comp isn't an issue actually.  I don't know why I bothered with my spearelf comment there.  So nobody has an opinion on how to spend the remaining points?  Second chariot it is!