Question?

[Simon]

okay..

1 unit of 6 bretonnia knights charged a unit of chaos warriors with the warrior champion in the left corner.

there is a unit of chaos hounds screened the chaos warriors with only half of the base of the warrior champion exposed to the charge. So the unit of knights "clipped" the warrior champion.

there is no challenge, and the knights managed to kill the chaos warrior champion.
the questions are:
1. do the knights get to attack the rest of the normal chaos warriors even no normal chaos warriors are in base contact with the knights??

if the knights managed to deal 5 wounds and the warrior champion failed all 5 saves..

2.  do the extra wounds carried onto the normal warriors?

thanks

[dave grant]

You have 3 options

1) Attack vs the unit. Reg warriors die (say 5) champ lives and fights back (unless the entire unit is killed)

2) Allocate onto champ (note only front rank in lance can do this). Any excess wounds from allocated attacks fo not carry over

3) A mixture of the 2

More importantly... . why the hell did the champ not challenge, as then only the Knight champ can attack, or decline and lose the blessing.

[Simon]

1) Attack vs the unit. Reg warriors die (say 5) champ lives and fights back (unless the entire unit is killed)

so, even only the warrior champion in base contact with the knights, but the attacks can still carry onto the normal warriors??

2) Allocate onto champ (note only front rank in lance can do this). Any excess wounds from allocated attacks fo not carry over

so the back rank have to attack the normal warriors??

More importantly... . why the hell did the champ not challenge, as then only the Knight champ can attack, or decline and lose the blessing.

becuase the champion is not in base contact with any chaos warriors..

Also:

I thought becuase only the warrior champion is in base contact with the knights, then all the attacks MUST Allocate onto the champion?

[Fujin]

becuase the champion is not in base contact with any chaos warriors..

Shouldn't matter (?). The Knight Champ would be required to move into contact with the Chaos Champion. You don't need to be in base-to-base contact with a Champion model in order to issue a challenge - just involved somewhere in the combat (as long as you are engaged).

[dave grant]

I think he means the champ wasn't fighting (ie in base to base with anyone) so no challenging.

Yes - Champ is NOT a character. If he was its a different answer.

Bank rank must hit reg warriors


No - again Champ is NOT a character.

[wouster7]

emmm...

So what I get outta tis is that, since champ not a character.
5 attacks can be on the unit plus i can allocate attacks onto the champ.
No challenge since buckwheat from the bus isn't in contact to issue a challenge.
Simon suffers whats know as the "blind bus smash!".
Chaos goes "bugger!".

[Simon]

okay... i think a pic is better than a thousand words..

this is what happened..



please correct me if any of the following is incorrect:

1. becuase the bretonnia champion is not in base contact, so my chaos champion cannot issue a challenge.

2. ONLY the 2 knights (musican, and the knight behind it) on left side can attack, the knights champion, standard bearer and knight in the second rank on the right side cannot attack becuase they are not in base contact with any chaos warriors.

3. ONLY the knight (musican) in base contact with the chaos champion, so he is the ONLY one can and MUST allocate attacks onto the chaos champion, the knight in the second rank MUST attack reg warriors?

3. becuase my chaos champion is not a character, so all the attacks can carry onto the reg warriors.



QUESTION 2:



the marauder horsemen declare a charge against the gyrocopter, becuase the dwarf warriors are in the way, so:

1. if the marauders horsemen decide to charge the gyrocopter, so they will also be in base contact with the thunderers, so they must fight with the thunderers as well?

2. if so, can the thunderers make a stand and shoot reaction?? assuming the horsemen are 10" away when declare the charge.

[Glenn Patel]

I believe this counts as a charge on the Thunderers, who can then S&S... but I think the Gyro can't flee, as if it fled they would not be able to make contact and thus would be able to choose to not charge them.

[dave grant]

1. becuase the bretonnia champion is not in base contact, so my chaos champion cannot issue a challenge.

YES

2. ONLY the 2 knights (musican, and the knight behind it) on left side can attack, the knights champion, standard bearer and knight in the second rank on the right side cannot attack becuase they are not in base contact with any chaos warriors.

YES

3. ONLY the knight (musican) in base contact with the chaos champion, so he is the ONLY one can

YES

 and MUST allocate attacks onto the chaos champion,

NO - can choose to just smash the unit

the knight in the second rank MUST attack reg warriors?

YES


3. becuase my chaos champion is not a character, so all the attacks can carry onto the reg warriors.

YES - unless specifically allocated - then no carry over.



Q2

Yes, and Yes. Glenn order is:

1) Declare charge on Gyro
2) Gyro does reaction. If he flees Cav can EiTW into Thunderers and declare a new charge. Or not (and stand in front of thunderers.
3) If Gyro holds thunderers are "drawn in" and get a charge reaction.


Note - depending on angles it could be that the cav can't hit the Gyro without getting the thunderers first. This is a failed charge.

[Simon]

okay, Question 3.

This is not my first time i encountered this problem. some players said i must and some say i can't. so i need an supported answer.




a unit of thunderers on the hill and a unit of dwarf warriors at the bottom of the hill. My flesh hounds charge the thunderers from downhill.

flesh hounds and thunderers are far apart, almost exactly at the maximum charge range,  and I need to wheel to avoid the warriors so it is impossible for my hounds to maximize with the thunderers on the hill. So my hounds end up "clipping" 2 thunderers on the side.

My question is: Can my flesh hounds "slide" sideways in order to bring more models into the fight after contact with the hounds?? this is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, but i just checked online errata, under "clipping", it says u can.



QUOTE: OFFICAL ERRATA AND FAQ Part 1:
Under clipping:
quote "if the units are far apart, exactly at the maximum charge distance of the chargers. this situation will make it impossile for the chargers to whell, becuase any wheel would mean that they fail charge. therefore they will have to charge directly forward. cannot physically wheel enough to bring the maximum number of models in combat.

To aviod this happening, the best solution is normally "slide" sideways the chargers in order to bring more models into the fight. this is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, but if players agree to do this, the game will benefit in realism and fun.

the important thing to understand when you come across this sort of situation is that clipping is not in the spirt of the game and every effort should be made to avoid it. "




I asked the master of warhammer fantasy Antony, and his answer is "There is no "sliding" in tourneys"

just wanna some suggestions..

thanks

[nik_]

Personally, I don't like 'sliding' and avoid it wherever possible, even when it would be to my advantage!! If you have to slide several inches as that is the only way you can get decently into combat, it almost seems like it should be a failed charge! (This is sometimes how I play it) Failing that, slide the minimum distance necessary to get another model into combat. My 2c based on personal opinion rather than the letter of the rules. (which, as you say, says you should slide to avoid clipping)

[Glenn Patel]

By the book, you NEVER technically slide. You wheel to maximise contact, however much contact that is. If there's an erratum, well, link?

[Simon]

Personally, I don't like 'sliding' and avoid it wherever possible, even when it would be to my advantage!! If you have to slide several inches as that is the only way you can get decently into combat, it almost seems like it should be a failed charge! (This is sometimes how I play it) Failing that, slide the minimum distance necessary to get another model into combat. My 2c based on personal opinion rather than the letter of the rules. (which, as you say, says you should slide to avoid clipping)

I need an answer with support, eg FAQ or from the rulebook..

it happens to me quite a number of times, some players say i can't slide (when they have the disadvantage) and some players say they can slide (when they have the advantage), So i need to know exactly if i can or if I can't, and I need reference, so when this happen again, I can tell them which page to read.

By the book, you NEVER technically slide. You wheel to maximise contact, however much contact that is. If there's an erratum, well, link?

below, first file, under "clipping"


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2

[nik_]

The wording of the rules is "there is no rule" -> All it offers is guidance that you 'should try to avoid clipping' and that you need to come to ' a gentlemanly agreement'. If your opponent agrees, slide. If they don't, you can't. I would be likely to allow you to slide if the clipping was because you were too close to the unit to wheel properly, but not if it was because you were at the absolute maximum of your charge range

[Antony]

it happens to me quite a number of times, some players say i can't slide (when they have the disadvantage)

WHAT!
Don't imply that I made rules up to my advantage Simon.

The unit was screened, you can't slide. Nuf said.

There is no 2" kill zone in Warhammer you know 

[Simon]

WHAT!
Don't imply that I made rules up to my advantage Simon.

The unit was screened, you can't slide. Nuf said.

There is no 2" kill zone in Warhammer you know 

calm down.. I am not talking about u, your thunderers were screwed either way.

I just need some clarification.

The wording of the rules is "there is no rule" -> All it offers is guidance that you 'should try to avoid clipping' and that you need to come to ' a gentlemanly agreement'. If your opponent agrees, slide. If they don't, you can't. I would be likely to allow you to slide if the clipping was because you were too close to the unit to wheel properly, but not if it was because you were at the absolute maximum of your charge range

sounds fair.

I know Josh and Phil prefer the sliding method.. which happened in our games, so would like to hear their thought.

[Vaul]

Clipping really seems like quite an issue in warhammer.  It's hard to fix because any change in the rules will create more problems.  I've been in a lot of situations where i've wanted to position my units (as a tomb kings player) in such a way that when I charge in my magic phase, they will clip in order for my guys to bleed less combat res.  But the thought of this makes me angry at the rules system. 

It would be quite a different game if you automatically failed your charge if you didn't bring your full frontage into contact, or if all models in the front rank were able to fight in the first round regardless of contact.  Still, such simplification s would no doubt bring it closer to 40k combat - which I personally find too simplistic and rather unsatisfying in relation to fantasy.

[Glenn Patel]

Personally, I think that the rule SHOULD be 'slide units to maximise contact at the end of each combat after units have taken break tests'. (so that awkward charges and untimely fleeing doesn't lead to stupid looking *protracted* fights... after all, if you break them in the first round of combat with the corner-to-corner static res, well, it's like getting a flank charge...)

That said, it's quite unambiguous. The FAQ notes what the rules ARE (clipping allowed and sometimes required, sliding not part of the rules). If both players agree, then the rules can be amended. Otherwise... follow the bedamned rules as written.

[Simon]

some players say i can't slide (when they have the disadvantage)

I played against this tomb king player a number of times, and he doesn't like sliding either. This is his fav trick:

He moves his fully rank up unit of skeletons 7 to 8 inches away from my unit in such a way, when he uses "urgency" on his skeletons, only 1 or 2 models will "clip" my unit, so my unit will lose combat and get outnumbered by fear causer and flee.

which really piss me off.

[Vaul]

That's exactly the tactic that I am tempted to do every time I am lining up a magic move.  It's just not a sporting way to play warhammer though.

[Glenn Patel]

It's legal by the letter of the law. Only thing stopping a TK player from doing that is their own sense of fair play... that, and your dispel dice.

[Fujin]

This came up a number of times for me at NatCon. What I found interesting was that it was a regional issue - South Islanders 'slid', but Aucklanders did not. My own preference is to not play sliding.

I do not believe the concept has been strictly FAQ'd.

He moves his fully rank up unit of skeletons 7 to 8 inches away from my unit in such a way, when he uses "urgency" on his skeletons, only 1 or 2 models will "clip" my unit, so my unit will lose combat and get outnumbered by fear causer and flee.

This sort of thing won't fly in a tournament environment - engineering a clipping charge would be enough to hit that player hard on Sports. Not cool. If it's a friendly game then you're pretty much screwed - lucky you having such wonderful "friends"

I agree with Glenn on this point - I think units should slide to maximise after break checks. I hate weird overhanging combats.

[Gratnuk Ironfist]

I agree with Glenn on this point - I think units should slide to maximise after break checks. I hate weird overhanging combats.

Yeah, it seems to me as the most sensible solution.

The good thing about doing it this way is that if the charged unit holds then their mates can flank charge the enemy, where as if the charged unit breaks then there is less of a chance that an enemy unit can just cut through your line because they will then be unable to go through the gap they made since they now must continue in a straight line from there. (As long as deployment left small gaps though.)

[Glenn Patel]

This came up a number of times for me at NatCon. What I found interesting was that it was a regional issue - South Islanders 'slid', but Aucklanders did not. My own preference is to not play sliding.

I do not believe the concept has been strictly FAQ'd.

He moves his fully rank up unit of skeletons 7 to 8 inches away from my unit in such a way, when he uses "urgency" on his skeletons, only 1 or 2 models will "clip" my unit, so my unit will lose combat and get outnumbered by fear causer and flee.

This sort of thing won't fly in a tournament environment - engineering a clipping charge would be enough to hit that player hard on Sports. Not cool. If it's a friendly game then you're pretty much screwed - lucky you having such wonderful "friends"

I agree with Glenn on this point - I think units should slide to maximise after break checks. I hate weird overhanging combats.

Really?

What if it's against Dwarfs, and you're trying to make sure they can't *counter*charge you should they blow scroll-runes to stop the magical move?


It's not an ambiguous rule. It's just a rule GW isn't happy with and can't come up with an airtight wording for that works how they'd like it to.

Also, what's the difference between 'engineering' and 'it just happened guv!'. How honest they are about it? You'll mark them down for being HONEST about it?

[Simon]

It's legal by the letter of the law. Only thing stopping a TK player from doing that is their own sense of fair play... that, and your dispel dice.

can do the same with anvil dwarf, it is unstoppable.

This came up a number of times for me at NatCon. What I found interesting was that it was a regional issue - South Islanders 'slid', but Aucklanders did not. My own preference is to not play sliding.

I do not believe the concept has been strictly FAQ'd.

Happened to me in Guardcon last year and a few games i watched.

elite armies, such as Bretonnia, warriors of chaos tend to "slide" whenever possible, while horde armies such as goblins, tomb king, vampire count prefer "clipping"

[Fujin]

Also, what's the difference between 'engineering' and 'it just happened guv!'. How honest they are about it? You'll mark them down for being HONEST about it?

I can't think of too many armies that would consistently find it easy to 'engineer' a clipping charge but, assuming their magic goes off (and it usually does) TKs would be one. A practically guaranteed magical charge move after you've freely reformed a the start of your turn and moved to ensure the clip can happen is really only achievable by one decent unit that I can think of 

Anyway, to answer your question - yes. The rules require you to maximise in combat. If my opponent is that interested in breaking the rules I can't see any other option but to mark them down on sports. Working a charge to avoid following the rules of the game would in my opinion be bad sportsmanship.

[wouster7]

The rules require you to maximise in combat.

Lacking in experience in the art of clipping. I do recall that models are not allowed to move beyond their maximum charge distance. Some charges may get the unit just in contact by a corner and when this happens we move the whole unit in regardless. Essentially if this is considered acceptable then I would now play the sliding rule as well. Taking into consideration that you still have to remain an inch away from your unengaged enemy.

[Glenn Patel]

Simon: Bretonnians can be quite happy with a clipping charge too.

Anyway, the rules, they are not ambiguous.

Also, what's the difference between 'engineering' and 'it just happened guv!'. How honest they are about it? You'll mark them down for being HONEST about it?

I can't think of too many armies that would consistently find it easy to 'engineer' a clipping charge but, assuming their magic goes off (and it usually does) TKs would be one. A practically guaranteed magical charge move after you've freely reformed a the start of your turn and moved to ensure the clip can happen is really only achievable by one decent unit that I can think of 

Anyway, to answer your question - yes. The rules require you to maximise in combat. If my opponent is that interested in breaking the rules I can't see any other option but to mark them down on sports. Working a charge to avoid following the rules of the game would in my opinion be bad sportsmanship.

*shrug*

Perhaps it's time for an old-school style tournament FAQ 'This is not how GW says this rule works... this is how WE say it works!', that just mandates sliding? ("If they can get one of their models to touch one of yours, slide the unit so as to maximise contact. When you redress ranks, slide to maximise contact')

Something to consider...

[Simon]

Question 4

an anvil of doom is placed behind a very big hill, screened by many units at the front.
my question is:

is it cheesy to "target" the unit right in front of the anvil and add a few more inches (obviously miss the targeted unit)  in such a way my stone thrower might land on the anvil?

Question 5

a waralter is placed right next to a unit of spearmen (base contact on the left), and some skrimishers on the right side of the war alter in such a way 1 model screened the waralter.

if i decided to charge the waralter with my greater daemon and obviously i have to be in combat with the spearmen as well, my question is:
will i also be in combat with the skrmishers?

[Fujin]

Q4 - yes. Cheese from hell - or at least, deliberate overguessing to hit a unit you cannot see if very bad form and gamesmanship.

Q5 - don't quite get it. One model screening the Altar? Initial response is that the Daemon hits the corner of the Altar and brings in as many of the Spearmen as possible (to maximise models in combat), thus avoiding the Skrimishers.