Rules Q from my game vs Glenn - follow up re combat alignment

[dave grant]

Some of you were watching my and Glenns game today, and wanted resolution on if the steg was, or wasn't allowed to charge the edge of the drak riders.

As promised I have queired the rule on combat alignment over at wargamerau. Currently split opinions (although the 2 'masters' players that have commented seem to think having the steg on the end is legal).


Check out the discussion here:

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=69053

Note, a few facts were changed for simplicity (like there only been 2 dark riders, in a column formation).

[Vaul]

Here's a photograph for your amusement and assistance.  Skinks (background) charge the 2 Dark Riders (mid ground) into their left flank, while the stegadon charges the dark riders in the right hand flank.  Dave moves the skinks first, making sure as many skinks are in contact.  Then he moves in the Stegadon, and discussion ensues as to whether he can leave the stegadon touching the 'trailing' dark rider, and only him - or whether he must make the steg attack both riders.  The issue of course is pertinent as it will affect overrun/pursuit and the remaining course of the game.

[Philfy]

In that case IMO someone was trying to be a bit of a dodgy monkey and indulging in "clipping".

Being seperate charges... and techically seperate combats... I'd have said that the steg had to maximise to involve both DR's.  Different if it had been charging BESIDE the skinks.

[dave grant]

Are you sure Phil.... discussion is ongoing (see linky). I always thought the rule was maximise models in combat - which would happen. I'm happy to br proved wrong though, as long as I know (either way) for next time.


Thanks for the Pick Mr Vaul.

[Philfy]

I think you need really to look at if one of the charging units had not charged, then how would you maximise the other side?

And therein will lie the answer. 

You are making two entirely different charges, (one from each side) and technically have two different combats (in isolation).  Hence EACH much be maximised as if they were on their own.  This is why it is not specifically dealt with in the rules (whereas them charging in side by side is) I believe.

My belief (due to it not being specifically dealt with in rules or FAQ) is that to argue you have both maximised (thanks to the charge by the skinks and no other virtue) is RAW lawyering to the nth degree and not within the intent of the rules. 

When two or more friendly units are chargins against a single enemy units's front, flank or rear, they are moved in simultaneously and must try to bring as many models into the fight as possible.  BRB pg 23

Basically you are arguing that by virtue of the skinks, both Dark Rider cav are "in the fight".  And if the skinks were not there...  hmm?  Therefore to my mind the skinks should make no difference to where the Steg is placed...  and hence you should be contacting both DR models with the Steg.

Bear in mind that the BRB is VERY clear that "clipping" is sometimes unavoidable - but SHOULD be AVOIDED at all costs at being undesirable.  And you are in effect trying to clip with the Steg.

[Antony]

I have an opinion...


...The rules are pretty clear, to paraphrase "you must maximise models in contact". The steg clipping means that it is not maximising models in contact.

By saying that all of the models are in contact so the steg can clip is going through a loophole. Isn't the princapal to maximise the opportunity for all models to be involved in the fight?

[Derick]

This brought something to my mind, avoiding combat...

I think you need really to look at if one of the charging units had not charged, then how would you maximise the other side?
<snip>
When two or more friendly units are chargins against a single enemy units's front, flank or rear, they are moved in simultaneously and must try to bring as many models into the fight as possible. 
<snip>

So if a unit of 5 doggies(125mm) charge a unit of spearmen(100mm), and the speamen are next to a unit of GreatSwords (100mm). Due to the unit width, the doggies will unavoidably contact the Greatswords.

So can the doggies minimise the contact with the Greatswords and just clip the corner, so that only one Great sword model can be in combat, by giving the dog on the other side of the spearmen just a corner?

The contact with spearmen has been maximised. All doggies are in combat and all spearmen are in combat, the greatswords just happen to be there. the charge was declared on the spears.

Do the doggies maximise contact with both units, slide across so that half the frontage of the dog is on one unit and half is on the other unit.

What's the thought here?

[Glenn Patel]

Need to get the maximum number of models on both sides into contact... this possibly means getting more than one greatsword in, depending on the width of the interunit gap... and also how much movement the doggies have.

[Dirty_Vod]

When you contact 2 units you have to maximise against the unit that you beclared the charge against first.
After that you maximise against the 2nd unit that has been drawn into the combat. This can result in a clip against the 2nd unit.

[Derick]

The way I see the Steg question is this: As long as he has a corner on the leading rider, then the units are maximised - everyone gets to have a swing.

If this means that the steg would overrun into the skinks, and lock up their movement, leaving a lovely flank exposed to the foot troops thats his own silly fault for charging.

[Glenn Patel]

To not overrun into the Skinks, the Steg had to pivot pretty sharply and go corner to corner with the second Dark Rider (avoiding contact with the other Dark Rider entirely).

That is, corner to corner with one of the enemy models, no contact whatsoever with the other one.

[Fujin]

This brought something to my mind, avoiding combat...

So if a unit of 5 doggies(125mm) charge a unit of spearmen(100mm), and the speamen are next to a unit of GreatSwords (100mm). Due to the unit width, the doggies will unavoidably contact the Greatswords.

So can the doggies minimise the contact with the Greatswords and just clip the corner, so that only one Great sword model can be in combat, by giving the dog on the other side of the spearmen just a corner?

The contact with spearmen has been maximised. All doggies are in combat and all spearmen are in combat, the greatswords just happen to be there. the charge was declared on the spears.

Do the doggies maximise contact with both units, slide across so that half the frontage of the dog is on one unit and half is on the other unit.

What's the thought here?

Haha Derick you cunning sod. Replace "doggies" with "Empire Knights", "Spearmen" with "Nurgle Chaos Warriors" and "Greatswords" with "Khorne Chosen" and this situation does look vaguely familiar    I was pretty certain I didn't need to maximise against both units in that particular case... except that

When you contact 2 units you have to maximise against the unit that you beclared the charge against first.
After that you maximise against the 2nd unit that has been drawn into the combat. This can result in a clip against the 2nd unit.

Tony's right and this means I should have brought Chosen into the combat, not one.

For what it's worth my understanding is that the 2 Dark Riders are involved in combat (Skinks) and the Steg is free to be tricky. Having said that, purposefully lining up a clipping charge doesn't feel quite right (although it is damn clever).

[Philfy]

I have an opinion...
...The rules are pretty clear, to paraphrase "you must maximise models in contact". The steg clipping means that it is not maximising models in contact.

By saying that all of the models are in contact so the steg can clip is going through a loophole. Isn't the princapal to maximise the opportunity for all models to be involved in the fight?

Thats a nice sum-up actually Ant.  And I agree.  Basically because if the skinks weren't there then where would the Steg go?  Yup - into contact with BOTH DR models. 

Can't find this "sliding" mentioned anywhere in the rulebook that keeps being referred to on the WAU thread.  Fine.  If you want to slide get the TO to rule on it and take a sport hit from me for being a dodgy monkey.  No hard feelings 

[Xander]

How are the DRs aligned? It's hard for me to tell. Are they:

   DD            or           D   or          D              ?
   DD                        DD                D 
                                D                  D
                                                    D
 

[Glenn Patel]

Well, there was only two left, like so:

D
D

With Saurus in front and to the left and the Steg to the right. I'd set them up to give the Steg a charge-through path that passed in front of my Warriors if the Steg charged alone, and so that the Skink/Krox charging alone would come closer to the Warriors.

He did the double charge so that the Dark Riders would, if they fled, flee so as to give the Stegadon a good charge (in a direction it wasn't facing'. SO.... I do what he wasn't expecting - declare a hold reaction.

Then he goes wibble-wobble Steg pivots wildly to avoid contact with the other one.

It made a difference to the overall outcome, as instead of fleeing the Steg overrun, the Warriors hit the Skrox in the flank, caught 'em when they fled (I think), and then managed a draw with the Steg when it flanked them.

[Simon]

So if a unit of 5 doggies(125mm) charge a unit of spearmen(100mm), and the speamen are next to a unit of GreatSwords (100mm). Due to the unit width, the doggies will unavoidably contact the Greatswords.

So can the doggies minimise the contact with the Greatswords and just clip the corner, so that only one Great sword model can be in combat, by giving the dog on the other side of the spearmen just a corner?

The contact with spearmen has been maximised. All doggies are in combat and all spearmen are in combat, the greatswords just happen to be there. the charge was declared on the spears.

Do the doggies maximise contact with both units, slide across so that half the frontage of the dog is on one unit and half is on the other unit.

From warhammer rulebook Errata offical FAQ and appendices:

the doggies do not need to maximise contact with both unit, only the unit they declared a charge on.