Results - Over The Top 09

[Philfy]

Well done to all competitors, and congratulation s to Dave D for winning the event for the second year running!  Thanks for supporting the event for the last few years Dave - and all the best for your return to the UK later this year.

Vagabonds Hamilton supplied prize vouchers again this year and our thanks to them as well for their support.

It was great to see numbers grow this year, albeit only by two, but thats still good to see! 

So without further ado - here's the results. 



NB: These will also be sent in to the IF Rankings guys to be added to the database.

You can check them out here

Hope to see you all and a few more besides next year!

[dave grant]

Indeed, thanks for organising Phil.

Not sure why more don't go - although this year having it on Valantines probably wasn't the best idea. I've been all 3 years whilst in NZ, and enjoyed them all. A report will be appearing on my Blog over the next few days.


Still can't believe my "no Spirits" WE got worse comp than your Daemons, or the 13 PD Lizards.... but never mind. As for the crutch, over the weekend the Dragon got killed more than any other unit in the army. Including the sacrificial glade riders - useless bugger.

[Antony]

Still can't believe my "no Spirits" WE got worse comp than your Daemons, or the 13 PD Lizards...

Cry me a river 

Well done

[Fujin]

Well, only one thing to say about this...


JI-DAVE

[nik_]

Thanks heaps for running it Phil, good show considering how much sleep you had 
Congrats to Dave also, but he does owe it all to me for just bending over and giving him the 21 points in our game... Bloody dragon 

To anyone who didn't go this year, it's a really worthwhile event.

[Josh]

@ Fuj. How small do you think the ji Dave will be in the second half of this year with you skipping tournies for fear of meeting Phil's Demons or worse my Orcs?

GO THE ORCS! I was so close to getting the spoon, it's a good thing I smashed the n00b playing his 7th ever game of Fantasy 21-0.

ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC ORC!!!!!

[Fujin]

Hmm...

Well to be honest mate I reckon the might of Ji-Dave will do very nicely. I hope to face Phil this weekend and smash him (again). Funny you mention dodging tournaments - not playing at FluffyCon because you're playing... Warmachine? Man, that's the biggest dodge of all!

How did the other games go for you manage a stunning 15th out of 16 players?

[Josh]

Tough talk for a guy who can't beat can't even beat the dude who came 15th out of 16th 
And for those who dodged the hard tournament (the one that real men got passes for) it's not really surprising that the mighty Ji-Dave is quietly hoping for a better showing at a tournament where everyone's playing pansy lists. I'm not going because I like a challenge! Yup, the Ji-Dave is whimpering out of existence...

[Fujin]

Yeah... I prefer to think of it as 'everyone is on an even footing' and 'no one has the option of relying on cheesed up flying Terror-causers' to win their games.

Nice Wyvern by the way Josh. Good to see that even someone running a flying, rank-breaking Terror-causer can still make a hash of their games and get whipped like a schoolgirl by everyone except the guy who's just learning how to play.    How did you go at Fields last year again? I placed 8th, just to remind you.


True true, I haven't beaten you (yet). I'm not sure what it is but Tomb Kings (and Brettonians) always seem to give me heaps of trouble. Of course, that last game - failing Terror on Ld10, really means you won more by good fortune than any amount or superiority of tactical acumen. I guess a win's a win... (even if it is thanks to one hideously unfortunate and statistically improbable piece of dice fluffery from your opponent). Maybe I'm saving my mad dice skillz for when it counts. 

I look forward to beating the stuffing out of your flying beard bus with two Great Cannons in the near future.

[dave grant]

Josh, your a nice guy, but what are you on  

How can the JiDave get a better showing than 1st? My fellow JiDave brother 'Lucky Dave' may have been rested for OTT, but why would he need to turn up when it was so obvious I would dominate?

Lucky is my padawan, soon I will leave and he will take my mantle and become 'the master', anc continue to carve out the JiDave here in NZ using all the skills I have taught him.


May the JiDave be with you..... always.

[Fujin]

What he said.

JI-DAVE!!!

[Antony]

Lucky is my padawan, soon I will leave and he will take my mantle and become 'the master', anc continue to carve out the JiDave here in NZ using all the skills I have taught him.

If that's the case then I think the JiDave is in going back to consciously incompetent

[Fujin]

Weird... I thought I heard the voice of someone I recently smashed...


Must be the wind. Or the hot air.

[Antony]

You had your training wheels on.

Any other result would have been like me picking a fight with a guy wearing glasses, or a hitting a girl... just not a done thing

[Fujin]

Oh, it's Kitson. Gidday.

Surely by training wheels you're not referring to the fact we're playing with fluffy armies?! Don't tell me you're actually admitting to needing a cheese-monster in your army in order to win a game! This FluffyCon stuff is paring the game back to it's building blocks - use of manouevre, rank-bonus, and core infantry to win games. The best tactician wins. Not the guy who manages to patch together the most hideous (Dark Elf) army.

In summary - you threw in the towel in the first game on turn 5. The second game was a draw because I took pity on you and in order to keep myself entertained (and awake) I employed a dubious deployment plan to make things more challenging.


Good thing I'm taking this all in good humour Antony or I'd be forced to bring the dog to FluffyCon.

Pretty sure your Duellists aren't up to taking another beating from my highly trained and vicious terrier.

[Antony]

That terrier attack resulted in a list rewrite. It had by far the biggest impact on my army than anything on the table top.

With all you talk talk I didn't want to rock your fragile ego. Else we may end up with cry cry, and to be honest, Dave, you are to big an asset to WHFB to have you running back off to 40K, or even worse to warmachine

[insert appropriate emoticons here]

[Fujin]

I'm feelin the love here. I really am.


Ok off-topic here but fact: I will NEVER play Warmachine. Forget it. Uh-uh. No freakin' way.

Dwarfs will get Fast Cav, Daemons will be the softest army and Wood Elves will be allergic to trees before I play my first game of Warmachine (that is to say - never).

That terrier attack resulted in a list rewrite. It had by far the biggest impact on my army than anything on the table top.

I'll take that as a thank-you. Any success you may encounter on the table is entirely due to me (and the plastic-hungry animal). Any mistakes or errors on your part that result in a crushing defeat have nothing at all to do with me...  (unless I'm actually playing you in which case I beat you fair and square).

[Philfy]

Dwarfs will get Fast Cav,

  There HAS been a lot of talk of donkeys lately...

Daemons will be the softest army

  Tick!  Ok they weren't the "softest" army...  but they sure weren't the hardest at OTT!

Wood Elves will be allergic to trees

  Funnily enough...  out of the two WE armies I played at OTT...  there were NO TREES!

before I play my first game of Warmachine (that is to say - never).

Based on the above...  never might occur sooner than you think!

[nik_]

Wood Elves will be allergic to trees

  Funnily enough...  out of the two WE armies I played at OTT...  there were NO TREES!

And the other one had a tooled Treeman Ancient who decided to die to Glade Guard shooting -> There is something wrong in the forest !! Looks like it could be a good time to start playing warmachine... It would help you avoid getting the beat down at fluffycon and embarrassing yourself after all this trash talk

[Josh]

Yeah... I prefer to think of it as 'everyone is on an even footing' and 'no one has the option of relying on cheesed up flying Terror-causers' to win their games.

Nice Wyvern by the way Josh. Good to see that even someone running a flying, rank-breaking Terror-causer can still make a hash of their games and get whipped like a schoolgirl by everyone except the guy who's just learning how to play.    How did you go at Fields last year again? I placed 8th, just to remind you.

Uh-huh. Keep trash talking Mr I can't win with dwarfs so will try to offset my skill deficiencies by playing a Slann/Unseen Lurking Steg list, no wait... Grail Knight bus Bretts... NO WAIT, I'll play the softest list out there, Walter/Stank/Great Cannon army! Fluffycon is about creating a balanced field? Tell you what, the next time you think you're ready to give up your crutch and play with any army in the same tier as the mighty Orcs, you let me know...

Cheesy my arse... have you ever lost to Orcs?

[Simon]

Yeah... I prefer to think of it as 'everyone is on an even footing' and 'no one has the option of relying on cheesed up flying Terror-causers' to win their games.

what a joke..

[Fujin]

I get the feeling you're not laughing Simon

It's definitely not for everyone. Some people are clearly still under the impression that there is fantastic balance between all the army book and no one should have a problem with their opponent taking 'x' hideous combination. Fair enough - FluffyCon is not for you. Must be why you're playing 40k at the moment. I'm happy to take the TO's word that the majority of the lists hit the '0' adjustment and in doing so, given the nature of the event, are softer than a normal tournament list.

Uh-huh. Keep trash talking Mr I can't win with dwarfs so will try to offset my skill deficiencies by playing a Slann/Unseen Lurking Steg list, no wait... Grail Knight bus Bretts... NO WAIT, I'll play the softest list out there, Walter/Stank/Great Cannon army! Fluffycon is about creating a balanced field? Tell you what, the next time you think you're ready to give up your crutch and play with any army in the same tier as the mighty Orcs, you let me know...

Yeah. I definitely went through a phase of taking some... stuff. Not sure if I'd go so far as saying I was trying to offset skill deficiencies   Admittedly I find it hard to win with Dwarfs. Got a lot of draw/minor wins and losses. Getting the big wins against a skilled opponent is beyond challenging with what I think of as a balanced army (that being 3 warmachines, 20 shooting troops and 3 combat blocks - not an Anvil/Gunline/Miners from Hell list). The Slann/Unseen Lurker Steg list is a funny one to raise given you're a Tomb Kings player. Somehow attempting to use magic to move your best troops around is a cheesey and tactless option? I'd also be hard-pressed to fault Alex Kin-Wilde who used a not dissimilar Lizards build last year to place 2nd in the Australasian rankings. I was running a Realm Knight bus of sorts when I gave Bretts a go - most Grails I ran was 6 with full command. I think I see what you're saying though. I stopped playing them because really they didn't suit my playstyle and what I wanted from the game. Bretts were like "reverse-Dwarfs" - all charge and no real manouevre (as far as I was concerned).

Can't recall mentioning anything about an Altar or Stank...? I'm not running either at 2000pts and have no intention of running them at 2250pts either - just don't think you need them to prove you're a good general; Empire can cope well without them if you are a decent player. Two Great Cannons? Definitely at 2250pts - something has to keep those big scary nasties honest 

I think FluffyCon is about creating a balanced field. Undeniably NOT having a Class A uber-unit/monster/character is making people play a different game that I feel requires more thought and strategic planning. There is less all-round in the way of utterly reliable units. I think some players are finding it a real challenge and that's a good thing! It feels more like Warhammer and less like 40k; exacerbates the differences if you will. I've found every game that both players are working hard to make the battle work in their favour. Plonking down a Bloodthirster with trademark kit has a different sort of mentality to spending 3 turns maneouvering for the superior position.

Cheesy my arse... have you ever lost to Orcs?

Sure. Scott thrashed me while I was using Brettonians (no Wyvern - lots of magic). Utterly annihilated me I think. Mark took me to a draw in a FC playtest game (no Wyvern - big Orc and Goblin blocks, fair magic, no Giant). Derick kicked my ass in a FC playtest game too (no Wyvern - Boar Boyz and Spiders, Giant, fair magic). O&Gs don't have it too bad in a FluffyCon system. I've also beaten them down in return on a few occasions or ended up with a draw.

Looks like it could be a good time to start playing warmachine... It would help you avoid getting the beat down at fluffycon and embarrassing yourself after all this trash talk

Haha. I'm happy knowing that Philfy's already set the bar as far as trash-talk exploding in your face post-tourney goes. The wind up to Fields and the ultimate in anti-climaxes going down 20-0 (using a not inconsiderable list) was about as good as it gets. Win or lose I know this weekend is going to be the best tournament in any system I've ever attended because of the ethos behind the event - I just really dig it. I'm really hoping to play Phil/Tony/Dave/Reid, especially in the later rounds. Tells me I must be doing something right at least 

How's this for a deal - if I get totally smashed and come in the bottom half of the field (that's 19th or less) I'll step down as president, leave the club, and stop posting on this forum. Is that punishment enough for having all this trash-talk explode in my face?

[Josh]

Dave! That post could be made into and feature-length film! I hope you know I'm just taking the piss right? I'm not going to share my thought on the FluffyCon thing again, esp as I'm not entirely sure what about it doesn't quite sit with me. Regardless, Over The Top was the best tournament I've been to. Using Orcs having never play tested them proved to be an immense challenge, but I had an absolute blast! Thanks Phil and congrats to those who won.


Ok, one last dig. Are you serious when you call the wyvern lord a 'big nasty'? He comes in at under 440pts. That's less than a bog standard Slann and can hardly be compared to monster variants seen in Dark Elf/Demon lists. What's with the hate?

[Fujin]

Nah it's cool - all about reflection and learning I think - good to reflect on the Lizards/Bretts, why they did/didn't work etc. But I wouldn't want anyone to think I've gone the Stank/War Altar route. I'd love to have gone to OTT but getting a leave pass two weekends in a row when work has just started back was never going to happen. Bad timing for one of those tournaments means I'll likely NEVER go to OTT based purely on placement. Combined with the fact it's so close to DogCon (which I intend to... attend)...

It's definitely a major encouragement to the format to have 38 players attending though so I think FluffyCon has a future in the gaming calendar. And I don't believe there are any Welly players coming up either!

I would (and do) call anything that flies, causes Terror, and breaks ranks by itself and 'big nasty'. Comparisons between list don't hold much sway as far as I'm concerned - comparing a Slann to an Orc Boss on Wyvern is more than apples and oranges as they have such vastly different roles within their respective armies. If you must look across lists the function of a Wyvern, a Greater Daemon, a Dragon - they have similarities but I agree - it's very hard to compare them all. I don't "hate" so much as sigh - personally I've found playing games without those sorts of units so much more enjoyable.

After FluffyCon it's back to the real world I guess 


Makes me wonder what the TO of Fields of Blood will make of it all later in the year...

[Philfy]

Yeah. I definitely went through a phase of taking some... stuff.

Everyone does at some stage, AND should.

Admittedly I find it hard to win with Dwarfs. Got a lot of draw/minor wins and losses. Getting the big wins against a skilled opponent is beyond challenging with what I think of as a balanced army (that being 3 warmachines, 20 shooting troops and 3 combat blocks - not an Anvil/Gunline/Miners from Hell list).

  Any army without fast movers struggles to gain the initiative against their opponent.  And Dwarves can't even take fast movers (hence why they are always allowed to march).    Hence why, whilst always a challenge to beat (esp if they castle up), dwarves tend not to "win" games, but rather just not lose them.  Thats my theory anyway.

Haha. I'm happy knowing that Philfy's already set the bar as far as trash-talk exploding in your face post-tourney goes. The wind up to Fields and the ultimate in anti-climaxes going down 20-0 (using a not inconsiderable list) was about as good as it gets.

Damn straight!  Do I care?  Hell no!  Its called "trash" talk after all!  And I'll keep doing it at least until I'm the one who gets to gloat a bit!  LOL

I'm really hoping to play Phil/Tony/Dave/Reid, especially in the later rounds. Tells me I must be doing something right at least 

Edited for correctness!  Having used my daemons list + Flamers last weekend, I'm now very aware of some of the deficiencies and weaknesses in the list.  No I'm NOT saying its soft cheddar...  more of a mild variety.  Funnily enough not overly different for FC as what I'd be taking anyway...  however I KNOW I'm going to miss those flamers!

[quoteHow's this for a deal - if I get totally smashed and come in the bottom half of the field (that's 19th or less) I'll step down as president, leave the club, and stop posting on this forum. Is that punishment enough for having all this trash-talk explode in my face?
[/quote]

Don't think so tim....  with pommy dave heading back to uglier climes in a few months...  that'd be the death of jidave in this country...  hmm hang on...  YAY!  *cheers*  Okay - EVERYONE beat up on the so-called lucky dave!!!!!!!!!

 

[Josh]

I don't "hate" so much as sigh - personally I've found playing games without those sorts of units so much more enjoyable.

1) It's better to relate a Wyvern to a Hippogryph I think, or maybe a Manticore. I'd suggest to you that comparing one to a 'big nasty dragon/Bloodthirster' is far more a case of apples and oranges.

2) Have you ever even played with one of 'those' sort of units?

It's the versitility of the Warhammer world that interests me mostly. If tournaments such as the above encourage people to think out of the box rather than rely on their one uber-dragon combo to win, I'm all for it. However, just hacking out the option to take certain units does not achieve that result and IMO does nothing real for the balance of the game (balance problems are far deeper than one or two units).

Ultimately, Dave took a dragon and it got owned all the time, hardly a game winner for him. I took a Wyvern and it is just as much a liability as a benefit. It's about what is cool 

[dave grant]

Josh - as I mentioned to you before, the Wyvern is a bit Meeh! It's the guy on top who's awesome (with Shaggas sword of brokeness). 

[Fujin]

1) It's better to relate a Wyvern to a Hippogryph I think, or maybe a Manticore. I'd suggest to you that comparing one to a 'big nasty dragon/Bloodthirster' is far more a case of apples and oranges.

You're probably right but if it's not a caster then surely the end result is the same? Hit a flank, smack down with a bunch of attacks, hopefully break, force some Terror checks. Or support a charge. Aside from that (and I understand there is a "more or less" condtition involved here) I struggle to see their role in the game as being that different. A Manticore is terribly effective (rerolls thanks to Hatred) and ok, you could fluff a round of dice rolls with the Wyvern (although there are wargear options to mitigate this) but how are they really poles apart (or 'apples and oranges')?

2) Have you ever even played with one of 'those' sort of units?

I used a Hippogryph while playing Brettonians. I would rate them as one of the 'softer' flying nasties that isn't probably as capable of taking on a unit single-handedly but is maybe more useful for annihilating supporting units. Again, there are wargear options available to help with it's role in the army. The Hippo wasn't so invulnerable (of course, nothing truly is...) that I didn't have to be REALLY careful with it and it would be one of those 'different' classes of flying nasties I suppose.


I completely agree - the diversity in Warhammer is part of what (can) make it such a fascinating game. But when every second army has a dragon or greater daemon... I'd be questioning the "diversity" at that point. Some players also really struggle when it comes to making concessions to these sorts of choices e.g. "what's wrong with taking a Dragon AND <insert other uber-options here> - obviously why Australasia has this ongoing love/hate relationship with composition scoring. It's hard to moderate this internally as well as between armies and army books (and between players!).

However, just hacking out the option to take certain units does not achieve that result and IMO does nothing real for the balance of the game (balance problems are far deeper than one or two units).

Maybe. Maybe not. Balance is a tricky word to bandy around. When I ran Fields last year I (and the comp judges) were frankly appalled at some of the lists - just so inappropriate. I think sometimes balance problems really are as deep as one or two unit (or types of unit). The overall power-level of the armies increases because everyone (or at least the majority) are tooling up to face Greater Daemons, Dragons, flying-Terror causers (or 10+PD magic phases, armies that are full to the brim of fear-causers, ward-saves, killing blow etc). OK, I digress.

Fact is, from my experience and playtesting, the FluffyCon ruleset promotes a different type of game that I personally have found incredibly enjoyable and refreshing with more creative and tactically diverse armies.

Josh - as I mentioned to you before, the Wyvern is a bit Meeh! It's the guy on top who's awesome (with Shaggas sword of brokeness).

Having been on the receiving end of 8 str8 attacks my Empire Captain would be inclined to agree   Of course it;s my fault all his mates got front-row seats nice and close to the action 

[Josh]

You make some good points Fuj. I still disagree, but meh. I played 4 years with the TKs and no 'big nasties' (please don't lump the Bone Giant into that category) and can say without a shadow of doubt that I've never had as much fun playing Warhammer as I did playing with the Orcs last weekend.

That said I completely understand where you're coming from. I too would like to see a few more lists built around the army as a whole rather that 1 or 2 units which dominate the game (the empire army at OTT with a unit of special character Ludwig, Lord, and hatred casting priest in a unit of 10 Inner Circle Knights = ~1000pts), but for me the inclusion of those units is just another challenge to overcome (I didn't )

[Fujin]

I wonder if your enjoyment of OTT stems from the fact you weren't using TKs. Or that you were using Orcs (which seem to be an army whose prime directive is FUN). I reckon the two armies you're playing are so 'opposite end of the spectrum' from each other there would be great interest on your part in using Orcs after playing TKs for so long. The TKs have that reliability in-built - ItP, magic, movement (for better or worse). The Orcs have psychology, animosity, leadership to contend with. Good on you for going down the green path I say! I wonder how much more you will learn about the game as a result?

That Empire army sounds a bit sick. Lol, an Empire Deathstar! I've seen Mark around the place and look forward to catching up with him this weekend (hope to play him! Empire vs Empire will be a bloody battle! First to run off the pitch wins!  ). Wonder if the army was build around the perception he would encounter some "over-the-top" builds at OTT. He ran all-cav at Fields; an interesting choice indeed.